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Fred wrote: Just for the sake of debate... * Is this GoaNET or GoanET? I think Herman has done away with all possible confusion over this by simply calling it Goanet, which we know is his preferred spelling for the mailing list. (In reality, though, earlier, I often misspelt it very often as GoaNet in my writing; many seem to have picked up and retained this misspelling. I have recanted and made suitable changes for the past two years or so.)
Cecil:
Let's not get confused by the semantics involved. What does it matter which letters are capitalised? Herman himself (in his oft quoted interview by the leader of his fan-club) admits that he never imagined the strength and the direction GoaNet would take. GoaNet should be allowed to evolve and so should the way it is spelt. If Fred feels GoaNet is more proper I will agree with him. Herman's Founding Father status should not come in the way of an appropriate spelling of GoaNet. These things should be decided by experts in linguistics.
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Fred: * My ethnicity is as irrelevant to the debate as -- to cite a recent argument put forth in another context -- my blood-group, the colour of my underwear, or my caste background. You should be judging me on the basis of what I say, not on the basis of such considerations.
Cecil:
Apples and oranges.
You cannot change your blood group or caste but you can change the colour of your underpants.
1) By buying them yourself
2) By washing them regularly
Incidentally during the caste debate I found that the earlier form of caste system allowed for upward mobility. Maybe now that caste no longer serves its original purpose we should allow for downward mobility? Let all the upper caste Catholic people who claim they don't follow the system take up lower caste status. Any takers?
And while we talk about so called casteless Goans who have married people of other ethnic origins, could we have a survey on how many Goans on GoaNet have married Negros (I am told that is the current politically-correct word for people of the Negroid race. 'Black' being a misnomer if you have seen Micheal Jackson recently). Strange isn't it that so miniscule a number of Goans (or Indians for that matter) marry Negros, whereas so many do marry Caucasians and Mongoloids? Isn't this a statistical abnormality? Or is it also a form of caste system that we conveniently do not see?
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Fred: * If not, please tell me why. Is there some special concession on the basis of ethnicity that allows me to get away talking 20% nonsense just because I claim to be a "Goan".
Cecil:
I totally agree. So please tell me:
1) Can I join SaligaoNet?
2) Will my opinion be given as much weightage as a born and bred native Saligaonkar?
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Fred: * Are we presuming that someone who is or calls himself a "Goan" is always right, or his/her actions are always beneficial to Goa and her people, while those who might have migrated into Goa more recently are to be viewed with suspicion?
Cecil:
This is the crux of the matter. Who calls themselves Goans? If a recent migrant cares so much for Goa that he calls himself a Goan then I think he will have Goa's best interests at heart. But someone who lives in Goa but still considers himself a Keralite or Bengali, or whatever, has a divided allegiance. Nobody's 'actions are always beneficial to Goa". Let's not go there.
I would just like to draw your attention to the fine distinction between those who call themselves Goans and those who prefer to identify with their native State/Country when queried on their identity. I have asked many of my non-Goan friends "Are you a Goan" and those who have unhesitatingly replied "Yes, I am a Goan!", have a different attitude towards their Goanness compared to those who hesitatingly say 'Yes I am a Goan but my family is from...." or those who say "No I am not". Tells a lot about where their heart lies.
For example can one truly be a Goan and yet be an active member of the Andhra Pradesh United Club whose membership is only open to natives of Andhra Pradesh? Whose benefit will you be looking out for?
I could be mistaken in this rather simplistic analysis though, and am open to debate on this matter. There are non-native Goans like Radhakrishnan Nair and Vidyadhar Gadgil on this forum whose writings I find very interesting and logical. I would particularly like their reaction to my categorization.
After we have settled the matter then we can start on categorising overseas Goans based on a similar question. Next we tackle foreigners settled in Goa. Next Goans holding Portuguese Citizenship without relinquishing Indian Citizenship.
It's all a matter of allegiance.
We Goans spend so much time debating who is Goan and being polite to non-Goans (on this matter) - most of whom identify themselves by their home State / Country, and have no real wish to be called Goans. Why do we presume that a Keralite wants to be called Goan? He will live and work and raise his family here but he is quite proud to call himself a Keralite.
If I migrated to Kerala tomorrow would I want to be considered a Keralite? Or would I still like to be called a Goan?
Or if I migrated to Canada would I become a Canadian? I might have Canadian Citizenship but I will always be an Indian, Goan and Aldonkar - in that order. And never a Canadian.
Roots.
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Fred: * The concept of being "Goan" is quite problematic, co*nsidering that what is "Goan" is defined by (accident of) Portuguese conquest. Alito Siqueira has alluded to this issue in his essay on caste. Till the mid-sixteenth century, Bardezkars, Sashtikars (and those in today's Mormugao taluka) weren't "Goans". Obviously there couldn't have been "Goans" before this place got called "Goa" -- since when? Till a little over two and half centuries ago, most of the so-called New Conquests people weren't simply "Goans". If the Portuguese had come a bit earlier, gone a bit later, mixed more closely with the locals, or forgotten their home back in Europe, couldn't they too have become "Goans". If the idea of a Vishal Gomantak had succeeded, we probably would have had many more people calling themselves "Goans". Or maybe none, if the name was changed.
Cecil:
This is a common enough argument used among the intellectual elite. So why not expand the field? India as a single political or cultural entity did not exist before the British colonisation of South Asia. So we cannot really say who is "Indian", or can we?
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Fred: In Goa, we don't accept the poor migrant, but a Pratapsing Rane whose family migrated from Rajputana land after the Portuguese, or a little earlier, gets prompt acceptance as one of Goa's longest serving CMs. Help me someone... this is an exercise in drawing boundary lines which obviously doesn't have any logic to it.
Cecil:
If the Rane's or the migrant's proudly call themselves Goans then they will be accepted as such I think. It's those who still retain their native place as their identity who have no right to call themselves Goan.
On a village level too we have such scenarios. A Hindu from anywhere in Goa will go to his 'native' village to worship 'his' mother goddess for important festivals.
Or an Aldonkar living in Panjim will always call himself an Aldonkar. The day he calls himself a Ponjekar he cannot also claim to be an Aldonkar can he? Divided loyalties.
Am I making any sense? -------
Fred: Additionally, we have this severe problem of different segments of the population not quite accepting each other as human, let alone as fully Goan! If you think I'm exaggerating, look what often happens at the time of marriages.
Cecil:
I don't quite get what Fred is trying to say here. Do tell us what happens at the time of marriage? Are you talking about caste conflicts? Those who believe in that crap are vermin (non-human) anyway so let them intermarry. Why should the rest of us be bothered? And don't give me the old hat about 'parents forcing'. If you can't think and decide, independent of your parents, then you have no right to start a family of your own anyway.
That sounded cool! I'm on a roll here!
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Fred: * Since we all do not believe that man originated in Goa, it is obvious that all of us migrated *into* Goa at some point of time. Do we accept as fair a system that allows discrimination by the earlier migrants against the latter migrants? (And no, I don't subscribe to the view that those controlling the comunidades in Goa were necessarily the *earliest settlers* of these respective areas. The most dominant at one point of time? Probably.)
Cecil:
When you say migrants it sounds very dramatic. But take for example membership of a social club. Later members cannot be expected to have the same loyalties as earlier members. In fact some clubs make it compulsory that a Executive Committee Member can be voted only from among those who have more than a certain years of membership in the club. So you see it exists everywhere. Those who migrated (or became members) earlier, and have assimilated the identity, without any divided loyalties, will certainly be more likely to look after the betterment of the community/club than later entrants with an undecided-as-yet loyalty. Stands to reason doesn't it?
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Fred: These comments reflect my personal biases, and are not intended to pretend to be the opinions of the Goanet Admin Team.
Cecil:
They definitely cannot. *chuckle*
The 'Goanness' content of the GoaNet Admin Team is also questionable, and hence their ability to comprehend and deal with the complexities of these matters is hampered.
Would the powers-that-be ever considered including a Gujarati, settled in Goa for many years, on the Admin Team?
---------- Fred: I quite respect Helga and her forward-looking point of view, and she has questioned Gadgil's interpretation of her comments. But in this case, I must concede that my gut-level response was closer to Gadgil's -- Tariq has a right not to be insulted on grounds of religion or ethnicity, regardless of whether he is from Miramar or Mars.
Cecil:
A person born and bred in Miramar, of parents from Miramar, is more likely to have Miramar's best interests in hand than a casual visitor from Mars. A long term resident form Mars who constantly flaunts his Mars origin is also highly suspect. A Mars native who has settled in Miramar for generations, and accepted Miramar values and culture as his own, is difficult to find.
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Fred: More so, when the debate was about the US Presidential elections. (Even if the debate was about Goa, the test would be who is more logical, and not the background of the discussant. For example, a Philip Thomas can and is adding a lot of value to our debates, while a number of us so-called blue blooded sons of the red soil of Goa continue to talk crap.)
Cecil:
This is the first recorded instance in recent history of Fred using the word 'crap' in a debate. I hope we are seeing a renaissance of the old Fred who could not be bothered about being sensitive or politically correct. And used to call a spade a spade - a long time back, before political correctness became the in thing.
------ Fred: Over to you guys... FN
Cecil: What "you guys"? Which team do you represent? As always, I only represent myself!!!
Hope that is enough food for thought over the Divali holiday. Let there be light on these heavy discussions.
I'm off now to show my boys the Narkasurs all over Panjim. Happy Divali!
Cheers!
Cecil da Devil's Advocate
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