Bosco poses an interesting question:
+++ Suppose I told you, a particular friend(s) of yours had a casteist mindset,
would you do as you suggest below - stop associating with them?
Cecil:
Very interesting.
Firstly I would not take anyone's word about somebody else's casteist mindset. If I observed that a particular associate of mine was caste prejudiced I would definitely keep my distance from him. But then it's all relative and one cannot give a blanket reply.
Example 1:
I have a friend of mine who at first appearance appears absolutely casteist with his open proclamations of his and other people's castes. But he also is one of the most helpful people I have ever known and will go out of his way to help anyone - regardless of their caste. Now can we condemn this person as casteist? He just uses the labels but is not prejudiced or bigoted in his behavior towards a person of any caste.
Example 2:
We were once discussing matters of caste at a table and a middleaged (upper caste) man quite impressed us with his anti-caste views and open minded opinions. Someone abruptly asked him, "Would you approve of your daughter marrying a maar?". He was shaken by the question and the delay in replying and the stuttering that followed told us a lot about his "preach but don't practice" values.
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Regarding membership to caste based clubs Bosco wrote:
+++ Aren't you putting this a little too simply.....there must be several
hundred Goans who were scarred by being denied membership to the Jurassic Goan
Clubs you mention.....this has been an oft raised issue here on Goanet over
several years....if people keep mentioning this....it obviously affected some of
them.......probably something that you and I cannot relate too as we were not
denied membership and probably can neither counsel them.
Cecil:
I agree I am not qualified to comment. I have not had first hand experience of the caste based clubs in East Africa. But let's talk about Clubs in general.
You say some people were "scarred" by being denied membership. Are you serious?
I don't join Club Nacional or Club Vasco de Gama here in Panjim because:
1) I don't think I can afford the fees (actually I don't have a clue what the fees are!).
2) I don't speak Portuguese like most of the members do.
3) I would not be comfortable with generations born and bred Ponjekars who have already formed cliques of their own.
I don't join Club Gaspar Dias at Miramar because:
1) The fees are in the range of Rs. 40,000/- for Life Membership
2) I'm not a medium/big businessman or of good social standing like most of the members.
3) I don't play or fancy lawn tennis
I don't join Saligao-Net because it is exclusively for Saligao people.
Does it bother me that I cannot join these Clubs? Not at all. Do I condemn these clubs for being rather exclusionary and not making membership easily accessible to everyone? Not at all. I join the Aldona Institute where the fees are cheap and the company is all known and membership is freely available to absolutely anyone. Why should I regret not being able to be part of a circle if membership if that circle holds no allure or benefit for me?
Caste, income, ethnicity, skin colour, education, religion... all these things will continue to define exclusionary circles. Rather than try to break into these circles isn't it better that we pity them for their "co-sanguinity" and define open, inviting circles of our own? Like GoaNet for example? What better way than this to cock a thumb at the old systems?
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Bosco: +++ What about people whose grandfather moved from village A to village B for economic or social reasons? If village A was higher in the social hierarchy would that automatically make the family appear from a lower caste once we met subsequent generations living in village B ? What about the reverse? Could one really predict their caste! NOT !!
Cecil:
An elderly Catholic gentleman from Bastora told me long back, "In the South Goa village where my ancestors originally came from we were considered Chardos but here we are considered Sudhirs." I didn't pay it much attention at the time, because I was busy imbibing and enjoying his five year matured Caju Feni, but now that Bosco mentions it maybe it is true that caste changed if a family moved from one village to another.
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