--- Alfred de Tavares <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Santosh debates elegantly and relevantly, and always >thrives on dissent...... >
Dear Alfredchacha and Kevin, Thanks for your kind words. But more importantly, Thanks for understanding my point of view. I am sure there are many others in this forum who feel the same way as you do. For those who do, I would like to demonstrate how quotes from my original writings over the last few years have been butchered and doctored in this forum. I provide below my real quotes along with the butchered and doctored ones, and once again state emphatically that I stand by everything I have said in my real quotes: THE BUTCHERED AND DOCTORED QUOTE 1 Joe Vaz wrote: "I had cited just two examples of a miracle by definition: Red Sea parting as depicted in the movie "The Ten Commandments" (i.e., not simply a low tide); JESUS RAISING THE DEAD MAN LAZARUS TO LIFE (John, xi)." Santosh Helekar wrote: "As I alluded to before, NOBODY SAW THESE GAMES. Joe Vaz, Have you seen them? THE ABOVE MIRACLES ARE AN APPEAL TO IGNORANCE..." THE FULL REAL QUOTE 1 Joe wrote: "I had cited just two examples of a miracle by definition: Red Sea parting as depicted in the movie "The Ten Commandments" (i.e., not simply a low tide); Jesus raising the dead man Lazarus to life (John, xi)." Santosh wrote: "As I alluded to before, nobody saw these games. Joe Vaz, Have you seen them? Do you have authentic photographs of these events in real life by any chance? I have seen the movie. I hear they used props and things like that in it. But even in the movie enactment, the parting of the Red Sea looks pretty fake to me. Having said that, I know Joe Vaz is trying to win cheap sympathy for his argument from an audience that is overwhelmingly sensitive to the mention of Jesus's name. How can an irreverent lout like me ever score a goal against Jesus? So I will head this ball over my goal line. Let Joe Vaz have his cheap corner." Joe wrote: "Like others on the forum, I would like to request our esteemed scientist, -- to demonstrate to this audience through his own scientific wit (or through his peer-review) that the above are not miracles but merely "an appeal to ignorance."" Santosh wrote: "The above miracles are an appeal to ignorance because those who insist in the literal reality of these events are asking people to believe in things that are in violation of scientific principles and everyday experience. They are asking people to believe in things that are not supported by objective evidence. They are trying to legitimize miracle as a valid logical explanation, bypassing even the common sense need for truthful eyewitness testimony and independent corroboration from multiple sources." THE BUTCHERED QUOTE 2 Further, Santosh Helekar writes: >"I am not ashamed of having done such a thing."< THE FULL REAL QUOTE 2 Santosh wrote: "Furthermore, I am not running for a political position. You need not do a hatchet job on me. Actually, for your benefit I would gladly admit that I have indeed ridiculed miraculous explanations of natural phenomena, various kinds of superstitions and supernatural events described in the religious literature. I am not ashamed of having done such a thing. There is a rich and dignified tradition established by great people such as Charvaka, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Swami Vivekananda, Mahatma Gandhi, Gora, etc in India, and Benedict Spinoza, Thomas Jefferson, Friedrich Nietzsche, Mark Twain, Albert Einstein, H. L. Mencken, Bertrand Russell and Richard Dawkins, among others, in the West, who have done exactly that in a much more provocative, poignant and significant manner than I can ever imagine doing. So your quixotic efforts at indicting me in this forum would not do anything to deter me from posting any such comments or arguments in the future. I have every right to ridicule any such proposals and beliefs, especially as they apply to explanations of natural events and phenomena. Having said that, I stand by my assertion that I have never ridiculed people's belief in God (as a purely spiritual affirmation). I also stand by my assertion that I have never tried to scientifically disprove the existence of God, because it is a generally accepted understanding that God is an abstract concept that does not have a physical existence." THE DOCTORED AND BUTCHERED QUOTE 3 In another post Santosh wrote: ["A LOT OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING I, WOULD STRONGLY OBJECT TO ANY CENSORSHIP OR BAN OF SATANIC VERSES OR ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS PARODY IN THIS PUBLIC FORUM."] THE FULL REAL QUOTE 3 Joe wrote: "I would sturdily object if Salman Rushdie's 'Satanic Verses' were posted on this Forum." Santosh wrote: "A lot of people, including I, would strongly object to any censorship or ban of Satanic Verses or any other religious parody in this public forum." Joe wrote: "You will always find people standing up and correcting any obnoxious or provocative posts here." Santosh wrote: "There will also be people who will stand up to "correct" those who think they are "correcting" others. The self-righteous need to be shown that they are often wrong. Tariq, Marlon, George, Mervyn and Allwyn are doing a splendid job in that regard. Blasphemy died more than 300 years ago in the civilized and free world." THE BUTCHERED QUOTE 4 Joe wrote: "As for your belief/s in the caste system and idol worship, -- you are free to indulge in the above activities, at your heart's content. I will not dissuade you in your personal beliefs." Santosh wrote: "[The above statement is another pathetic attempt by Joe Vaz to put words in my mouth.]" THE REAL QUOTE 4 Joe wrote: "As for your belief/s in the caste system and idol worship, -- you are free to indulge in the above activities, at your heart's content. I will not dissuade you in your personal beliefs." Santosh wrote: "The above statement is another pathetic attempt by Joe Vaz to put words in my mouth. I never said I believed in the caste system or idol worship. I do not believe in the supernatural and superstitious beliefs of Hinduism. I am a Hindu only by birth and tradition. All I said in my last post is that I doubted whether Joe Vaz respects some people's belief in the caste system or idol worship. This question still remains unanswered. However, I wonder what "you are free to indulge in the above activities" really means. Are these good activities or bad activities?" THE BUTCHERED AND DOCTORED QUOTE 5 Joe wrote: "Actually, Santosh you have your own 'foot in your mouth'. :) Take a good look at your comments below and discern what invites you to frame the question as you did." Santosh wrote: "[I doubt you respect people's belief in the caste system and idol worship.]" THE REAL QUOTE 5 Joe wrote: "As for the rest of us let us take a break from discussing with the net jester --Chimbelcho of the civilized and free world -- who prides on impudent demeanor and cannot distinguish between 'blasphemy' and 'respect' for religion." Santosh wrote: "I wish you would only speak for yourself. But you cannot help being a net-pope or net-mullah. I am yet to see you become a net-swami though. I doubt you respect people's belief in the caste system and idol worship." Cheers, Santosh
