--- Aristo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Aristo replies: > Rape is a crime of violence, instigated by lust (No, > I have not done exstensive studies nor do I have > statistics to prove it, but it is my gut > feeling). > Mario replies: > Sorry to ruin your overheated fantasies, but according to mental health professionals rape is not instigated by lust, but by violence and misogyny. > Aristo writes: > > True, masochism is not a normal condition, > I submit, but violence against women are not > confined to the psychologically deranged. A sane > person too can commit the same. > Mario replies: > Aristo, It was you who used these ridiculous examples about masochists and rapists, not I. Now you want us to believe that deranged masochists and sociopath rapists are sane. If that were true all moral codes are useless, including those followed by "sane" atheists:-)) > Aristo writes: > > Further, it is you and the likes which illogically > assumes that Aitheists and Agnostics with no moral > codes are prone to be violent and immoral when you > have rejected claims that human beings are prone to > non-violence and morals due to evolutionary > instincts, if i can correctly recollect from > previous posts (Do correct me if I am wrong on > this). > Mario replies: > I waste half my time correcting people who take issue with me without understanding a word I have said. > I made no such assumption as you allege. I did turn on it's head Cornel's absurd comment about atheists never having armies. How could anyone who lived through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's not know that Communists are atheists by definition, whose manifesto included world domination by force? > That has nothing to do with you, who may be a non-violent and peaceable and very "sane" atheist, but with a vivid imagination. > Aristo writes: > > So lets consider this as a hypothetical situation: a > law-less era in time, where violence and immorals > are inbred, and ones actions are only justified by > the moral codes in place. A sane person is > not inhibited by the rock-solid Golden Rule/Ten > Commandments Combo to commit violent crimes against > women. > Mario replies: > Why would those whose violence and immorals are "inbred" sign on to a moral code? If a person is not inhibited by a code he or she has signed on to, like the Mafia and Hitler, then everyone knows that they are violaters and there are consequences from the group. What the heck do you think being a member in a morally based group means? > Aristo writes: > > In fact, I am confident that this era in time > did exist in our history. Yet, you still evade the > fact that the Rock-solid combo is, in fact, not so. > My only assertion was that Sai Baba's COULD BE! > Mario replies: > I am not evading anything. It is you who are denying the obvious, that violaters of a moral code do not invalidate the code itself, especially when compared with unorganized individual atheists, where we don't even know for sure what the code is, leave alone when exceptions may be made under pressure or convenience, unless they get themselves arrested. > BTW, I have no problem with Sai Baba's code, which is signed on to by his followers. Are you saying that just because Sai Baba has a code that some of his followers cannot violate it? Your silly examples of masochists and rapists are now in tatters because such people are violaters of rules, by definition, regardless of whose rules you are talking about. > > Mario observes: > Then what happens to Sai Baba's "Help ever, hurt > never", when the very same masochist you are > concerned about may harm someone, by our standards, > because he truly believes he is helping him or her, > by his standards? Or the rapist may run around > raping women by pretending he is "helping" them by > giving them pleasure? > Aristo writes: > > Again, I agree about the masochist. But a SANE > person who tries to justify raping a woman with > the "Help ever, Hurt Never" rule would have a tough > time, as the women would be struggling and screaming > "NO! Please stop, you're hurting me!!". Gosh, I > cannot believe that I have to actually spell > this out for you! And obviously, "Hurt never" > precedes in importance to "Help ever". Gosh! > Mario replies: > It is embarrassing to even respond to your examples that turn all logic on it's head, but, because I am such a nice, patient guy, you leave me no choice:-)) > What difference does it make what the woman is yelling if your friend the Sai Baba-follower-rapist is convinced he is helping her by raping her? Do you think the same woman would not be yelling "No!" if the rapist had signed on to the Golden Rule but thought the woman wanted to rape him? > Aristo continues doggedly: > > Aristo replies: > Im truly sorry for 'bursting' into your catfight, > but my only intention was to give a direction > towards a constructive end, wherein we can evolve a > universal moral code, home-made or not. I only > suggested the home-made moral code, it is upto you > and others to search for the truck-sized loopholes. > Mario replies: > There was no cat-fight, only a robust debate about appropriate moral equivalences, until you suddenly appeared out of nowhere to turn reason and logic topsy turvy with your masochist/rapist conundrum. > Aristo writes: > > Aristo replies: > Again, codes formed by centuries of accumulated > wisdom and experience DO have loop holes (which you > constantly evade by calling others illogical). > Mario replies: > Aristo, if there are loopholes in the Golden Rule, your Sai Baba code and masochist and rapist examples sure did not illustrate them. > Violations of a code do not invalidate the code itself. What I consider illogical is trying to make a direct moral equivalence between a recognized moral code that people openly sign on to which has group pressure to conform and consequences if violated, and a personal home-made moral code, that may be excellent, or not, no one knows what it really is, or when exceptions are made, unless the person gets themselves arrested. >
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