Goanetters, I was really surprised to find Mario's response (strongly agreed to by Jose) to be so feeble. I hope this is not indicative of him losing his bottle. This surely would not be good for Goanet!
My comments interspersed with Mario's post below, will try hard not to be personal, except mildly so, when there is no alternative in the need to make a focused point. Firstly, by way of reiteration, my post on Hitler as a Catholic, was to emphasise (as previously) that, Hitler, Stalin, the Cosa Nostra and the Mafioso are entirely a part of the equation re the much trumpeted "rock solid Christian moral code." No amount of embarrassment about these unsavoury characters, nor peculiar logic for their unwarranted exclusion, can justifiably remove them from the equation/debate. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mario Goveia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Gilbert's wisdom versus Cornel's misrepresentations > --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> After all, the firm evidence that, Hitler a >> firm believer in Catholicism all his life, was also >> possibly the greatest murderer of all time, should >> set you thinking. >> > Mario observes: >> > There is absolutely no logic or common sense in the > gross misrepresentation that Hitler was a "firm > believer in Catholicism all his life" since Hitler > spent most of his adult life publicly rejecting and > violating every single one of the rock solid tenets of > Catholicism. CORNEL: * The point made by me is one based on research evidence and definitely NOT meant to address something odd called Mario's logic or commonsense. Mario's logic and commonsense might be fine for him but definitely not for me. The whole tenor of my Hitler article was to highlight the vacuous nature of Mario's mantra of a rock solid Christian moral code if it depends on the exclusion of the most rotten guys in Christendom for the sake of convenience. The historical evidence I searched for, and then provided, and made available to one and all, suggests that Hitler was a devout Catholic. Minimally, he attended services, received sacraments, was most considerate to the clergy and hierarchy, accepted their adulation, and dutifully paid his dues to the Church all his life. In my view, he was extremely daft to believe that, he was doing God's will in exterminating Jews. But obviously, one can never know the complexity, depth and sincerity of his convoluted belief. Indeed, that is not our business (except by way of speculation) as we simply can't be sure where Hitler stood in his belief in Catholicism. Most certainly, we can't know if he engaged in a last minute act of in-depth contrition as a sincere Catholic. Where is the misrepresentation of anything in the above, as stated by Mario and endorsed by Jose? Mario's other point (without a shred of evidence) that, "Hitler spent most of his adult life publicly rejecting and violating every single one of the rock solid tenets of Catholicism" can also NOT be extrapolated from the specific evidence I supplied. History is based on evidence, not on someone's gut feeling about something. Mario is clear that his judgement on this matter is based on commonsense. He then chooses not to provide counter evidence to mine. It is therfore a waste of time in a serious discussion to debate a fellow's gut feeling when what is needed is evidence. Get it Mario? >> > Cornel's blatant misrepresentation is further > illustrated when he says above, "...Hitler... was also > possibly the greatest murderer of all time..." >> > While Hitler was a pretty nasty character and world > class murderer he was hardly the "greatest murderer of > all time". Hitler is credited with taking the lives > of some 11 million innocent people, just two of the > atheist communists murdering dictators that Cornel > never mentions, Joe Stalin, Mao Ze Dong are credited > with taking the lives of over 50 million innocent > people. >> > Hence the atheist communists Stalin and Mao are tied > for the world title of the greatest murderers of all > time. >> CORNEL * Note Mario's subtle distortion here. First, he quotes me correctly... "Hitler was possibly the greatest murderer of all time." Then suddenly my word "possibly" is removed by Mario. I wonder why Mario's distortion by the removal of a significant word was necessary? That distortion changes the meaning of what I had said. He then discusses his distortion as he normally does (as angrily commented on by many people) on Goanet. The distortion above is starring Mario in the face in the above paragraph. Get it Mario? However, Mario may be devious to get vicarious pleasure in scoring points but he is definitely not daft. I say this because I have just noticed above that, while he ranted previously that Hitler was an atheist, he has refrained from saying so above as I had strongly emphasised the point that Hitler was never an atheist. Mario sure reads posts carefully but simply has to distort material when he has his back to the wall. This is pretty often! I mentioned Hitler with Stalin as the two murderous monsters in Europe. How is it that Mario can distort this important point and claim I did not mention Stalin|? Surely, an explanation for this distortion, among the others highlighted above, would be welcome. Further, my piece was specifically on Hitler, and not in this instance, on Stalin who could be dealt with later, if need be. Why does brainy Mario think that Mao, Mao Ze Dong etc should have been included in a specific topic about Hitler? Has he never learned to write a coherent piece relating to the title of the piece? And, why was it necessary for Mario, to display acute ignorance of such things as the science of the singular or the use of case study by suggesting that a host of other unrelated people should be included on a piece about Hitler specifically? I hope Jose also makes note of this important point. > Why would someone who boasts of being a highly > educated teacher of history not mention these things > in their proper sequence and context? >> CORNEL: * Although this point is addressed above, again, Mario distorts things. Firstly, there was no boast about anything. There was only an expression of my enthusiasm in following the historical 'careers' of Hitler and Stalin for teaching purposes. Did Mario feel a bit green about the fact that I had an opportunity to do this with 15 weeks paid vacation per year? Incidentally, it was 18 weeks a year! I had forgotten about three additional half term breaks! Methinks Mario is very green with envy when he might have had, at best, two weeks' vacation a year when he lived and worked in the absolutely soulless new town of Harlow, Essex, just eight miles from where I worked on the edge of Epping Forest. He had intimated to me that he was in the UK at about the same time as I was in the UK in the 1960s and had engaged in engineering business training work, in Harlow, which I knew well because some of my work colleagues lived there. I'd like to suggest that, Mario is hardly qualified (with an engineering and business/management studies background), to be critical of someone who has been immersed in the humanities (history and international relations/affairs) first, and then, education and social sciences for the best part of 35 years, in total. Also, has an international professional reputation, and published extensively in books and international journals. Get the point Mario? I suggest further, that, it is not a bad idea to know/note one's place when trying to debate issues beyond one's understanding through a fleeting use of library books. Most certainly, I do know my lowly place in relation to engineering and business studies and I do not pretend to know everything under the sun like our friend Mario! Cornel _______________________________________________ Goanet mailing list [email protected] http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
