Hi Cornel, Sorry for the long delay in responding to your post concerning Hitler and the Catholic Church. I appreciate the effort you have made in organizing your data and the time spent in writing it for those of us who have been following this thread. Allow me to respond to your points with comments interspersed between them.
A little bit of business first: I am not a Catholic and am not naturally biased in favour of Rome. > 1. Since the beginning, Nazism and Catholicism had a peculiar co-existence. > Hitler was a baptized Catholic and so were several of his henchmen including > Joseph Gobbels. Neither ever formally left the Church and are on record for > dutifully paying church taxes until their deaths in 1945. Catholicism has had a peculiar co-existence with several movements and individuals. It has been far from an apolitical organization; however, I hesitate to equate its relationships with an endorsement, much less an official imprimatur of any kind. > 2. The Nazis under Hitler's leadership were faced with a country where the > overwhelming majority considered themselves to be Christian. There were > Protestants in the north and Catholics in the south. Consequently, Hitler > had to build his power-base on this reality. We're getting into very loosely defined territory, Cornel. You should know that the word Christian in, say, America or England, means something quite different than it means in India or Lebanon. In India, calling oneself a Christian is often a way of saying that one is not a Hindu or Muslim. Differences of language and culture have developed over hundreds of years based largely on religious identities to the point that the culture has superseded the practice of religion as a social identifier. For example, in the part of the USA where I live ask someone what he thinks about Catholics and the response you are likely to get is "beer, babes, and picnics". This is broadly called cultural Catholicism and is very distinct from Roman Catholic religion and practice. For purposes of this discussion I must separate the two. So far in this argument you have not presented evidence that the groups you describe above are indeed religious Catholics. > 3. Hitler as a person was critical of the Catholic Church at many times but > Hitler as the politician was fully aware that to achieve political success > he would particularly need to win votes from the Catholic (mainly centrist) > parties with whom he had much resonance. This he did assiduously by working > co-operatively with the Catholics. He was, throughout his career, pragmatic > about religion. He is on record as saying that, "If my mother were alive, > she would definitely be a churchgoer and I wouldn't want to hinder her. On > the contrary, you've got to respect the > simple faith of the people." You have rightly called him a pragmatic man, and there's a sharp distinction between a pragmatic person and one whose actions are based on "deeply held personal beliefs" (borrowing Edward Kennedy's euphemism for "conservative, vote 'no'"). You are illustrating my point that he was not really a practising Catholic but one of convenience. > 4. Hitler was NOT brought up as an atheist nor as an agnostic but as a > well-brought up Catholic. Never being an atheist, as some wish he were, so > as to distance him from Catholicism out of sheer embarrassment, Hitler grew > up in a religion and culture that was anti-semitic and inclined to persecute > Jews because of the belief that they had killed Christ. Hitler thus > repeatedly proclaimed that, he was doing the "Lord's work." Cornel, I need to clarify something--I have neither described Hitler as an atheist nor a devout Catholic. Concerning his proclamation about doing the "Lord's work", you seem quite eager to use this as another evidence that he was indeed a devout Catholic, yet it's so typical of politicians to tell people exactly what they want to hear. A few weeks ago in the UN general assembly the Israeli ambassador leaned over to the Lebanese ambassador and said something to the effect of "Let's admit it, we're doing what you really would like to do...we're doing you a favour" (or words to that effect). Do you believe the Israeli ambassador? Were Israeli bombings in Southern Lebanon carried out on behalf of Lebanon? Yet, you chalk up Hitler's Lord's-work quote as one more piece of proof that he was a devout Catholic merely because he said so. > At a Christmas celebration in 1926, Hitler said "Christ was the greatest > early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews. The work that > Christ started but could not finish, I, Adolf Hitler will conclude." You really seem to take Hitler at his word. This is a spectacular contradiction of Jesus' own words. Jesus came as a Saviour/Messiah to His own people, Hitler tried to exterminate them. Jesus came as a Jew, to Jews. He also instructed His disciples to speak to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", the Jews, in Matthew 10:5-6. Do you, in all intellectual honesty, believe that Hitler's comments were sincere and honest? > In a speech in 1938, in the Reichstag, Hitler said "I believe today that I > am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I > am fighting for the Lord's work." I have responded to a similar statement above. > To confirm further that, Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic, it is on > record that, he told one of his generals, Gehard Engel, in 1941, "I am now > as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He was definitely not > confused about his Catholic 'belongingness.' I reiterate that, he was born a > Catholic and died an absolute believer in Catholicism but there is no > evidence that he took the last rites. It is very easy to 'belong' to the Catholic community without being a religious Catholic. Catholicism leaves an almost indelible mark on a person's way of thinking, and try as you may it is very difficult to wipe away the vestiges of this influence by staying away from church. One of the most anti-religious people I know says that if he were to ever go back to church it would be the Catholic church because he thinks that there might be some truth to the doctrine of transsubstantiation. Does that make him a devout Catholic, or even Catholic? Not remotely. You are taking Hitler's claims seriously, in spite of the fact that they don't jive with his actions. > 5. There was no reason for Hitler to doubt his good standing as a Catholic. > The Catholic press in Germany was always eager to curry favour, and the top > brass of the Catholic Church, including the Pope, never asked for his > excommunication although they definitely knew he was genocidal in theory and > in > practice and had much blood on his hands. The Catholic church, or any other church/organization, is bound to curry favour with those among its own who achieve positions of prominence and authority. Hitler's cultural Catholicism apparently had some kind of symbiotic effect. Are you aware of any statements from Rome actually *endorsing* his genocidal actions? > When Hitler narrowly escaped assassination in Munich in November 1939, he > gave credit to Providence. Catholic newspapers throughout the Reich echoed > that, this was a miraculous working of Providence in protecting the Fuehrer > (German spelling). Cardinal Faulhaber sent a telegram instructing that a Te > Deum be sung in the cathedral of Munich, "to thank Divine Providence in the > name of the archdiocese for the Fuehrer's fortunate escape from death. The > Pope also sent his special personal congratulations! This is bizarre--not Hitler's act of giving credit to Providence, but rather of Rome's seeming joy at his survival. Has the Catholic church ever exulted or shown relief at the death of someone? Perhaps this reaction can be attributed to their relief at seeing him being offered, by 'Providence', one more opportunity at redemption? (I am guessing here.) > 6. Later, the Pope was to publicly describe Hitler's opposition to Russia > (officially communist and 'godless' at this time) as "high-minded gallantry > in defence of the foundations of Christian culture." Several German bishops > openly supported Hitler's invasion of Russia, calling it a "European > Crusade." One exhorted all Catholics to support the Nazi onslaught on > communist Russia, claiming that, "a victory will allow Europe to breathe > freely again and will promise all a new future" [under Nazism]. Cornel, I just discovered that you have been plagiarizing text. I find the above paragraph and much of your comments above to be lifted from an article at the Freedom From Religion Foundation, or perhaps another site which containts this text. Right up to this point I thought I was responding to your own comments. At any rate you could have cited your source. An experienced professor ought to know better. http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hitler.html Peter _______________________________________________ Goanet mailing list [email protected] http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
