Hi Cornel, Thanks a million for your short and pointed responses. These were very enlightening. I will respond to them briefly, and the responses follow your paragraphs. I take this opportunity to state that, your passing and scurrilous references to me in thrid party posts unrelated to this thread, is a clear sign that you have lost this debate and perhaps even your marbles. Yet, let me prove beyond doubt that conclusion, by systematically and methodically using your own statements and analyzing your responses. Kind Regards, GL
-------------------------Cornel wrote: CD: Hi Gilbert: Thanks for your response. CD: 1. I did not ask for your views on caste. I suggested, with an example that, there were inconsistencies in your post(s) to the issue of caste. GL: Thanks for clarifying.:=)) ------------------------------- CD: 2. I have not, as far as I am aware, EVER said that caste was like apartheid or like racial segregation in America where civil laws reinforced these institutions. I have however, always urged resistance to the evil of caste just like I strongly supported resistance to apartheid and racial segregation in America. GL: Please read my post to you. In it, I have not claimed that you said that, "Caste was like Apartheid or like racial segregation ...." In fact, I suggest you should academically think along those lines, if one is to think logically, systematically and bring about the changes as in the latter cases. In spite of your denial above, here is an abstract from your writings. Cornel wrote, "'Casteism' is an ideology akin to racism." I think this is absolutely right ... in a context where casteism is ENFORCED by edicts and laws SIMILAR to racism. I am only pointing it out, because you are the one who appears to be inconsistent in your claims and writings. ---------------------------------- CD: 3. With your reference to my often repeated point of caste being "insidious" firstly, I used the word "insidious" for caste precisely because although not sanctioned by law, it has been pretty devastating in its effect. Its ideology (despite state law) has 'permitted' the Brahmin to be judge, jury and executioner when brutalising the Dalits in particular. About such brutalisation, there is ample hard evidence that can be drawn upon when needed. Secondly, it is insidious because it is racism against people of the same colour / nationality and stock within the sub-continent and when taken abroad as baggage. All racism is unacceptable and indeed, I have referred to caste as brown on brown racism many times. Thirdly, I think that unlike other kinds of stratification e.g. social class that, is largely based on individual achievement/merit in capitalist societies, caste is totally intractable and based on ascription (birth), forever and forever even when not underpinned thus in its original genesis. Thus, irrespective of how rotten a Brahmin might be, say ten generations from now, his 'superiority' will be ingrained into him by his family in this utterly insidious form of stratification and even when economic and educational considerations might undermine him very considerably. Indeed, Afra Dias, no doubt a devout Catholic, reiterated this kind of lunacy of caste destiny that, was quite acceptable to her, on Goanet not too long ago. GL: You admit casteism in Goa is "not sanctioned by law" and neither by Catholic Religious edict. Your concern "irrespective of how rotten a Brahmin might be, say ten generations from now, his 'superiority' will be ingrained into him by his family" is not casteism. It is discrimination (using caste) because of 'poor upbringing' which hopefully is overcome by education. That is the way it has been done very successfully in UK and USA. The issue in discrimination is how does one protect the "lower caste" from the vicissitudes of other peoples' mind-set? The answer, (as in Britain and USA, and as the Catholic Church has attempted across the world), is one provides the lower caste / the victims with education and job skills. Thus another person's "superiority complex" is not an obstacle to his / their progress. The church has been very active in providing education and job skills training to the down-trodden. And this has very likely included you, me, other goanetters, and our ancestors. Thus your and other goanetters 'concern for the lower caste by blaming the Catholic church' is really part of your 'Church-bashing complex' and that of a NATO (no action talk only) Catholic. -------------------------------- CD: 4. As to my contention that the Catholic Church in Goa has coexisted with the evil of caste for generations, you will have to wait for my eventual article in the international Catholic press. Please do not worry yourself unnecessarily that, somehow I might slip up on this endeavor. There will be an opportunity for any interested person to question issues in my presentation, including you of course. Every effort on your part to discourage me from drawing the attention of the international community to the utter disgrace of caste among Catholic Goans has effectively strengthened (with much support from like-minded people), my resolve to persist. For this I must, of course, particularly thank you profusely! GL: This the heart of our dialogue AND THE ROOT OF OUR DISAGREEMENT (in case you are wondering). In spite of your extensive writings, many IPs and reading zillions of books on this subject, you obviously cannot produce any evidence data to answer my one question to you which was: "Now, please tell us what EDICTS, including OFFICIAL Policies and Procedures / Practices / Quotas does the Catholic Church in Goa CURRENTLY have / adopts that ENFORCES the well known cultural-caste stratification among Goan Catholics?" I thank you for your honest admission and not for some cockamamie explanations. Perhaps the capitalizing of the operative words may have helped. Your "Catholic Church in Goa has coexisted with the evil of caste" is a far cry from your conversation with the Cardinal (to quote you): "I talked to him about the widespread Catholic Goan hypocrisy of much internalised racist caste belief and practice that has included the clergy in this scenario." You have shifted your stand to: "Catholic Church in Goa has coexisted with the evil of caste ..." Yet this stand is even shallow for an academic and an intellectual. This is called "Guilt by association". This is the stand taken by most 'Catholic-bashers' on Goanet and elsewhere. Next you will likely claim the Churches in the Niagara Falls towns in Canada and USA are 'guilty' for wasting billions of gallons of fresh war every day. Why, you may ask? Because the Churches in these and neighboring towns "has coexisted with the evil of" water-waste at the Niagara Falls. In case you do not get the point, the Falls (like the Goan Caste system) is a phenomena that pre-existed long ... long before the Roman Church arrived. ------------------ CD: PS I hope you bear in mind that a lot of international people outside the ambit of Goanet read Goanet correspondence / posts with much curiosity and interest. GL: I am glad to note this. I ask their indulgence for putting up with some of my spelling and grammatical errors. If these "international people" are your college students, I hope to be appointed a member of your faculty.:=)) I had a sneaky suspicion that you were trying to get me to participate in your college-graduate teaching program.:=)) On a serious note, in spite of the wide reading of these posts, I am amazed you are so loose with your irresponsible charges and condemnations of the church, which as shown above you backtrack when asked for specifics. You should be ashamed. You cannot provide an excuse that your English vocabulary and phraseology; and your comprehension is poor, and these explain your poor choice of words in your allegations. Please do not present yourself to be an intellectual. Please call a spade a spade and admit to your baseless Catholic-bashing, in spite of your professed practice of the religion. I think you can look forward to a major career opportunity and appointment in the RSS. Regards, GL ----------------- Gilbert Lawrence wrote: Hi Cornel, Thanks for you patience and for asking my views about caste in Goa. Please read this carefully and repeatedly if necessary. To help you, I have capitalized the operative terms. I hate capitalizing as it suggest the readers cannot understand the important terms. Apparently it does help some readers. So I hope other readers will not take offence. I am no authority about caste. What makes CASTE insidious, like APARTHEID in South Africa, and RACIAL SEGREGATION in America was the social stratification is ENFORCED by an edict of religion, national laws or state laws respectively. Thus, these stratifications are STRUCTURAL discriminatives, where the victims has no recourse however hard and long they try and a change in the edict will be needed.
