Regarding Message 6 and the Quote of Aurora Coutto, Vol. 16, Issue 465, the
juridical quality of Portuguese governance far preceded the emergence of Estado
Novo of Dr. Salazar and was of far higher quality than what India could ever
give after its take over of Goa, Development Commissioner Alban Coutto
notwithstanding.The real estate records were foolproof hard bound hand written
registers kept in the Fazenda or treasury, i.e., they enjoyed the same status
and protection as the monetary funds of each district. In November 1965 the
Fazenda was disbanded, the old records were discontinued, and Goa was
re-surveyed by the Indians, and there emerged Forms I & XIV under the Goa Daman
and Diu Revenue Code which showed the holder of real estate as "occupant" and
not as owner. If Alban Coutto IAS was the author of the new system and copied
the system in Maharashtra, the latter had Forms Saath Baara which show the
holder as owner. Whereas with the Portuguese systems Goans could trot the globe
with peace of mind that their properties would remain untouched, the juridical
quality of the Indian systems is so inferior that the records are no longer
tamper-proof and I for one have experienced the gravest insecurities to my
properties in India-ruled Goa.John Menezes
On Wednesday, 1 September, 2021, 05:57:56 pm IST,
[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. It Is All In The Stars (Joao Barros-Pereira)
2. Re: Fwd: [GRN] How long will ... (or some ideas on the
so-called 'Goan Identity' (Milton Rodrigues)
3. How long will ... (or some ideas on the so-called 'Goan
Identity' (Bernado Colaco)
4. Re: Taliban pilot a US Black Hawk helicopter with a body
hanging from it (Mervyn Lobo)
5. Re: Ronald Carlton Vivian Piedade Noronha - A Goan Giant
Among Men (Frederick Noronha)
6. Re: Ronald Carlton Vivian Piedade Noronha - A Goan Giant
Among Men (Frederick Noronha)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 14:55:31 +0530
From: Joao Barros-Pereira <[email protected]>
To: goanet <[email protected]>
Subject: [Goanet] It Is All In The Stars
Message-ID:
<CAHg__J7RfWVkvJy2FuftEngX+JEne=ly_z4ptzpzz8gqgbo...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
saw pig
today
on scooter
rider
taking pig
to be killed
sausages
sorpotel
whatnot
lucky for
some pigs
i no eat
pork
what does joao want to say?
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 08:47:05 +0100
From: Milton Rodrigues <[email protected]>
To: Oscar Carmino Lobo <[email protected]>, Robert De Souza
<[email protected]>, Gregg Carvalho
<[email protected]>, Antonio Fernandes
<[email protected]>, Martin <[email protected]>,
Melvyn Fernandes <[email protected]>, Ignatius Desouza
<[email protected]>, Richard_lees85
<[email protected]>, Ian Moncrieff MacMillan
<[email protected]>, Nigel DeSouza <[email protected]>,
"ronnie. mascarenhas50" <[email protected]>, Ashley
Rodrigues <[email protected]>, judelond <[email protected]>,
Milroy Goes <[email protected]>, Joanne Da Cunha
<[email protected]>, kezaia365 <[email protected]>,
"harold.andradez" <[email protected]>
Cc: "To: [email protected]" <[email protected]>, Marcos
dos <[email protected]>, Atanasio Lobo
<[email protected]>, Annie <[email protected]>, "A.
Veronica Fernandes" <[email protected]>, Bernado Cola?o
<[email protected]>, Stephen Dias <[email protected]>, Robert
de Souza <[email protected]>, Babush Fernandes
<[email protected]>, Pedro Lopes <[email protected]>, Wilson Coelho
<[email protected]>, Tony Colaco <[email protected]>,
Miguel Barreto <[email protected]>, bhanudas sawant
<[email protected]>, Francisco Monteiro <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Fwd: [GRN] How long will ... (or some ideas on
the so-called 'Goan Identity'
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
As our GOANS migrated Abroad heavily :-
UK ( approx 120,000 GOANS estimated )
CANADA ( approx 55,000 GOANS estimated )
USA, AUSTRALIA ( approx 10,000 GOANS estimated )
Many were inter-married as you would expect
To indigenous English, Canadian, American, Australian etc
They have adopted the CULTURE of those great Countries to a large extent.
Many do not speak KONKANI.
It is very difficult to teach 3rd and 4th generation.
It is my belief that : The GOAN identity is disappearing fast !
kind regards from U.K.,
MILTON RODRIGUES
GOANS International.
Professional and Business Network.
EST 1998
URL : www.goansinternational.org
> On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:16 AM, Oscar Carmino Lobo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ?
> (Without prejudice)
>
> Dear learned Goans
>
> The question of who is a Goan has been a subject of serious concern more
> particularly after the Invasion/Liberation/Annexation (19 December 1961).
> Many Goans backed Liberation of Goa by India (as if people of Goa were in
> bondage)and for them it was a big achievement.
>
> I was once asked in a Goanet yearly meeting in Panjim (Panaji since
> liberation) - to describe "who is a Goan" ? Incidently, there are a few and
> far between Goans who have different versions. I do not appear to read a
> finer definition of a Goan.
>
> As most of us know, Goa was the possession of Portugal for 451 years and
> operating as a separate country with Embassy of India in Panjim.
>
> Most of the catholic Goans who believe Goa was Invaded, acknowledge that
> Portuguese culture was inherited by them and lived their lives with European
> culture based on a Pyrimid of social status.
>
> Some of the Catholic Goans were raised to believe that Goa was liberated and
> that is their prerogative. Many of them left Goa for Mumbai and Mangalore
> from where the pressure and support for Nehru also came through the then
> Cardinal Gracias who was apparently a Goan
> living in Mumbai ! There were some Catholic army man who joined the gang to
> invade Goa they got recognitions and life time financial support and termed
> as Freedom Fighters including those who were set free from prisons.
>
> On the other hand, majority of the Goan Hindus and Muslims practised their
> Hindu &/or Muslim culture. All in all, the three denominations lived in happy
> and in a peaceful way.
>
> We, Goans, are a complex community based on the nomenclature they choose to
> believe on how they felt about the way Operation Vijay was conducted.
>
> Needless to say that most Goans who believed that Goa was invaded left in
> droves and those who believed 19/12/1961 was a liberation decided to remain
> in Goa.
>
> Goans in general cannot help themselves in minding other Goans' private
> matters and this together with knee jerk reaction and tall poppy syndrome
> will find it difficult to see the end of a tunnel.
>
> For those who ardently believe that Goans can manage Goa, the first thing to
> do is to lay down a MOU and consequences clearly mentioned therein.
>
> Goan group dynamics is difficult to maintain when a mindset falls in the
> ambit of Liberation, Annexation, Invasion etc.
>
> These are the issues that generally Goan Associations (wherever they are)
> face with challenges in their thinking and decision making process.
>
> Most often and when time comes for Annual General Meeting, knives and swords
> come out to rid another Goan (who faced differences in the year past) by
> procuring a forced proxy to be used as a death warrant.
>
> Best wishes
> Oscar C. Lobo.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Roland Francis <[email protected]>
> Date: Wed, 1 Sep. 2021, 2:06 am
> Subject: Re: [Goanet] Fwd: [GRN] How long will ... (or some ideas on the
> so-called 'Goan Identity'
> To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! <[email protected]>
>
>
> Dear Antonio, or should I be more formal and say Justice Colaco,
>
> Your views are noted and while I and Goans of my generation, specially those
> in the Diaspora will agree, some of those living in Goa with the original
> Goan identity as you defined it, will disagree.
>
> In the current context of India?s gigantic population numbers, Goa in my view
> can happily accommodate a 5 million population. Given the continuing
> migration of Goans to other lands, a phenomenon that existed much before the
> Portuguese left, it was natural that hordes of other Indians washed ashore.
> That in itself is not a problem.
>
> What is a real problem is that Goa is more affluent that the other places in
> India, originally (not any longer) more law abiding and honest. But given the
> thoroughly corrupt and greedy politicians they continually vote in (who
> happen to be original Goans by the way) the dirty water flowed in and mixed
> in with the clear water, making everything filthy.
>
> What you are seeing now in Goa is the transition. That will continue until
> all the once crystal-clear liquid already much tainted, turns to the sewage
> that exists in the land in which it is surrounded.
>
> As you know, water seeks its own level and it is only a short matter of time
> for the land-grabbing, cheating, dirty politics, little care for the law and
> population density to exceed the 5 million it can bear. A look not at Indian
> big cities but at smaller towns in the rest of the country that groan under
> densities of 10 million or more will give you an indication of how much Goa
> has room to bloat, it being much larger than a small town.
>
> Nature dictates that the quantum of filth when encouraged or even ignored,
> tends to grow larger than all surrounding filth. A clear example of this is
> the Sonsddo phenom outside Margao. And people who matter in the sense of
> being able to contain the rot, are busy piling some of that rot into their
> own pockets. Then they die of pancreatic cancer and suchlike with no
> provision in their will that the rot be buried with them.
>
> There are of course some good things that have arrived on Goan shores in
> addition to the filth. They are some of the best of Indian society that were
> attracted to the Lusitanian heritage of the Goan people, traits that you of
> course know about and need not be explained to you. While some these
> newcomers may be crass, others uplift Goan society. However the problem is
> that such society is fleeting. When the sewer of Goa overflows, they will
> flee to other undiscovered but still beautiful small places in India that may
> not be as wealthy as Goa is now, but with their wealth, that would be of no
> matter.
>
> Roland.
> Toronto.
>
>
> > On Aug 31, 2021, at 7:10 AM, Ant?nio Cola?o <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > De: Ant?nio Cola?o <[email protected]>
> > Date: segunda, 1/03/2021 ?(s) 11:46
> > Subject: Re: [GRN] How long will ... (or some ideas on the so-called 'Goan
> > Identity'
> > To: Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
> >
> >
> > Concerning Goan Identity I do respect all the expressed perspectives. I'm a
> > goan, 82 years old, born and bred in Ribandar - which I visit every three
> > years, until recently. I came to Portugal, when I was 19 years old, to
> > proceed with my Law studies, having ended up as Justice of the
> > Supreme Court of Justice (jubilado) - Lisbon. At that time, there of
> > course existed a goan identity, coinciding with the original goan
> > community.during the long period of portuguese colonialism. However, from
> > the then existing 400/450.000 people, the population of Goa, since 1961
> > boosted to above 1.800.000 habitants, giving rise to the formation of a new
> > goan identity. New human social relationships were established, new social
> > behaviour, customs and habits.This does not entitle us to say that there
> > may be many goan identities. Goan identity is one and the same, however
> > changeable in its composition in accordance with evolution and time. The
> > least we can afford to say is that of an *absorption* of the goan identity
> > existing in Portuguese times by the uprising identity from 1961.
> > Let me explain my idea in more detail. Groupal identity is a *dynamic
> > social reality*. This identity is sustained by successive *generations.
> > *Based
> > on the average span of time of each generation being more or less that of
> > 30 years, we can assume that, due to the colonial impact being unaltered
> > (same colonizer and the same social local stratum) the
> > successive generations (15) brought insignificant changes in the social
> > sphere, and as such one can refer to a an homogeneous identity on the goan
> > people - hence the goan identity of that epoch ( it must be remembered that
> > that colonialism inGoa lasted 450 years, whereas the historical Empires
> > (Mauryan <Emperor Ashoka>), Kadambas or Vijyanagar) lasted less time). But
> > with the annexation of Goa, the incoming non-goan migrants from
> > the other parts of India, contributed for an increase in population 4,5
> > times superior than the one existing during the portuguese occupation. This
> > process, that started circa 58 years ago covers practically 2 new
> > generations, mixing harmoniously the original goans and the new-comers
> > migrants, giving rightfully rise to the actual goan identity, is certainly
> > to last long. So, if one wants to refer to the goan society existing
> > during the portuguese time, it would be more correct to express it as
> > the *goan
> > community. Ant?nio Bernardo Cola?o *
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 10:23:25 +0000 (UTC)
From: Bernado Colaco <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: [Goanet] How long will ... (or some ideas on the so-called
'Goan Identity'
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
It is incredible that the topic of Goan identity has been debated in various
forms of media, the latest being the internet? and for 6 decades. The problem
lies in the aftermath of 61 (which should be discussed in my opinion). Goans
are faced with a terrible rule today. Many young Goans want to leave their land
with urgency. The fear of crime has reached unknown heights. liberation has now
become a bognar (vicissitudes/pesadelo) for Goans.
BC
(Without prejudice)
Dear learned Goans
The question of who is a Goan has been a subject of serious concern more
particularly after the Invasion/Liberation/Annexation (19 December 1961).
Many Goans backed Liberation of Goa by India (as if people of Goa were in
bondage)and for them it was a big achievement.
*****************************
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 04:12:31 +0000 (UTC)
From: Mervyn Lobo <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>, "Goa's premiere mailing
list, estb. 1994!" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Taliban pilot a US Black Hawk helicopter with a
body hanging from it
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Tuesday, August 31, 2021, 05:25:03 p.m. CDT, Roland Francis
<[email protected]> wrote:
One day the Americans leave and the next day the Taliban are dying their
sophisticated choppers.
What gives?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe Biden's war cry should be, "Make Taliban great again."?
It is also becoming clear that the US citizens left behind are mostly ethnic
Afghans. I guess they were not high on the evacuation list.
Mervyn
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:28:12 +0530
From: Frederick Noronha <[email protected]>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Ronald Carlton Vivian Piedade Noronha - A Goan
Giant Among Men
Message-ID:
<CAMCR53Lsg=RQiAb=S4=0GpTGjk-gVyTtgYOdGwdukG-Ya=w...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Are you referring to Dr JC Almeida, also Development Commissioner of Goa
post-1961? FN
?
On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 09:24, Roland Francis <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Not so sure you are right. This, by his wife.
>
> Quote
>
> The year was 1963. Goa after Liberation. My husband Alban Couto was chosen
> by the Central Government to help with the transition from Salazar?s
> dictatorship to a modern democratic state. It was an extraordinary time,
> personally and professionally. His work was eulogized decades later: ?He
> planned and executed the transition from the Portuguese to the Indian
> systems of administration in a manner characterized by equanimity and
> prudence. It was the smoothest transition ever from a dictatorial
> free-economy regime to a democratic order. He was, at that point in time, a
> firm believer in guided economy.?
>
> This eulogy did not describe the disruption in the lives of the
> population. While Alban was immersed in complex administrative issues which
> streamed into political and personal problems, I had to deal with the
> social side as he was at first also Secretary to the Lieutenant Governor,
> in addition to his main designation as Development Commissioner. Unquote
>
> If he was with the Bihar cadre, one must note that in the IAS you are
> rarely assigned to your home state cadre in his case AGMUT. Remember he did
> not enter the IAS through the regular route. He was absorbed into it.
>
> Roland.
>
>
>
> > On Aug 31, 2021, at 8:59 PM, Frederick Noronha <
> [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > There is some mix-up here. Alban Couto was an IAS officer from the Bihar
> > Cadre, if I'm not mistaken. FN
> >
>
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
September 2021 | Frederick Noronha. 784 Saligao 403511 Goa
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa | M (after 2pm) +91 9822122436 Twitter @fn
1 2 3 4 | ----------------------------------------
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 |
<[email protected]>[email protected]
<https://youtube.com/c/frederickfnnoronha>
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 | Books. Words. Photos. Wikipedia. Networks.
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 | PHOTOS: https://flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
<https://youtube.com/c/frederickfnnoronha>
26 27 28 29 30 | VIDEOS: https://youtube.com/c/frederickfnnoronha
-------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:27:36 +0530
From: Frederick Noronha <[email protected]>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Ronald Carlton Vivian Piedade Noronha - A Goan
Giant Among Men
Message-ID:
<camcr53+zs_bji9zmcu9e1xpytqtzflm4-7xkdcu0t0zn1cn...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Alban Francis Couto, a Goan was selected as a member of the Indian
Administrative Service in 1953, a combination that prompted the Government
of India to depute him from Bihar to Goa, soon after the end of Portuguese
rule. FN
?
On Wed, 1 Sept 2021 at 09:24, Roland Francis <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Not so sure you are right. This, by his wife.
>
> Quote
>
> The year was 1963. Goa after Liberation. My husband Alban Couto was chosen
> by the Central Government to help with the transition from Salazar?s
> dictatorship to a modern democratic state. It was an extraordinary time,
> personally and professionally. His work was eulogized decades later: ?He
> planned and executed the transition from the Portuguese to the Indian
> systems of administration in a manner characterized by equanimity and
> prudence. It was the smoothest transition ever from a dictatorial
> free-economy regime to a democratic order. He was, at that point in time, a
> firm believer in guided economy.?
>
> This eulogy did not describe the disruption in the lives of the
> population. While Alban was immersed in complex administrative issues which
> streamed into political and personal problems, I had to deal with the
> social side as he was at first also Secretary to the Lieutenant Governor,
> in addition to his main designation as Development Commissioner. Unquote
>
> If he was with the Bihar cadre, one must note that in the IAS you are
> rarely assigned to your home state cadre in his case AGMUT. Remember he did
> not enter the IAS through the regular route. He was absorbed into it.
>
> Roland.
>
>
>
> > On Aug 31, 2021, at 8:59 PM, Frederick Noronha <
> [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > There is some mix-up here. Alban Couto was an IAS officer from the Bihar
> > Cadre, if I'm not mistaken. FN
> >
>
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
September 2021 | Frederick Noronha. 784 Saligao 403511 Goa
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa | M (after 2pm) +91 9822122436 Twitter @fn
1 2 3 4 | ----------------------------------------
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 |
<[email protected]>[email protected]
<https://youtube.com/c/frederickfnnoronha>
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 | Books. Words. Photos. Wikipedia. Networks.
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 | PHOTOS: https://flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
<https://youtube.com/c/frederickfnnoronha>
26 27 28 29 30 | VIDEOS: https://youtube.com/c/frederickfnnoronha
-------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Goanet Digest, Vol 16, Issue 465
***************************************
