The documentation says that an entity group could be as large as a single
user's data. It seems to me that to avoid the problem you are describing
that it would be a good idea to do so. I have a feeling that the number of
cases where you would need to update more than one user's data in a single
transaction would be limited.

2008/10/8 Josh Heitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>
> Assuming you can actually work around all of the limitation
> simultaneously, considering the more things you work around the close
> you come to the CPU time quota.
>
> It also is not completely accurate to state that the limitations are
> there to make apps safe and scalable.  For example transactions being
> limited to a single entity group makes it very complicated (i.e. not
> safe) to write code that needs to reliably update entities from
> different groups (it isn't always possible to structure entity groups
> such that everything that is needs to be updated for a request can be
> all be in one entity group).
>
> Also given the roundness of the quotas, I find it very unlikely that
> the quota numbers were choosen based on an in depth analysis or a
> broad sampling of data, rather the being choosen fairly arbitrarily
> (possibly based to some extent on what works for google's own apps).
>
> On Oct 7, 4:16 pm, Greg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Davew said it way back at the top - appengine's killer feature is
> > scalability. That is what sets it apart from the other cloud systems
> > out there, and it is also the root cause of most complaints (except
> > the quotas, which will disappear when you get to pay for the service).
> >
> > For the application I'm working on, I'm happy to trade off lack of a
> > relational database for the future gain of scalability. My guess is
> > that most of you haven't had the nightmare of an application that
> > suddenly became popular, and you had to become an expert at database
> > replication, load balancing and multi-system maintenance overnight.
> > It's a very stressful situation.
> >
> > So my advice is that if you don't need scalability, get a normal
> > hosting account or EC3. Then you can have PHP, Ruby, MySQL, cron jobs,
> > anything you want - problem solved. Oh, yes you are going to have to
> > shell out a few buck a month.
> >
> > But if you do need scalability, then appengine is a godsend. The
> > limitations are there to make it safe and scalable, not because Google
> > wants to annoy you. You spend a little more time now working around
> > the limitations, and save endless time later managing systems and
> > capacity.
> >
> > And lastly, I believe that many of the complaints come from people
> > just wanting a free hosting service, and not finding what they are
> > used to. It would be a crying shame if Google listened to these people
> > and turned appengine into a vanilla PHP/MySQL hosting service.
> > Appengine is so much more...
> >
> > On Oct 7, 3:54 pm, Ross Ridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > > One thing you have to remember it is not what Guido or the engineers
> > > > want. If Google App Engine is to succeed it is what the customers
> > > > want. If it is designed as you have stated it will never recoup what
> > > > Google has spent so far let alone down the road. Google App Engine
> has
> > > > so many many limitations.  Regardless if the limitations are by
> design
> > > > or not it is virtually unusable by 99% of all developers. Can Google
> > > > make a business off the remaining 1%?
> >
> > > The question of whether Google can turn Google App Engine into a
> > > profitable business doesn't depend on what percentage of developers
> > > find it useful, but whether Google exploit a competive advantage.
> > > Google could've started up a tradtional web hosting service using
> > > popular SQL databases and other techonologies and created something
> > > that would have had a much broader appeal.  Any one could.  That's the
> > > problem.  Google might be able to grab market share, but without
> > > anything to distiguish themselves from their competitors, a best they
> > > only get a marginal return on their investment.
> >
> > > We can only speculate on what Google business plan for GAE is, but it
> > > seems pretty obvious to me that leveraging Google's own internal
> > > technologies is at the heart of it.  A number of limitations and
> > > problems with GAE stem from technologies like Big Table, Google
> > > Frontend and Google Apps.  Another part of their plan appears to be
> > > keeping support costs low, so you're not given much rope to hang
> > > yourself (or others).  If, in the long term, Google can't make a
> > > business following this plan, if it doesn't give them enough a
> > > competive advanage, then there's probably no way they can make the
> > > kind profits from a hosting service that Google's investors expect.
> >
> > > (While it's not terribly relevent to this discussion, I suspect Google
> > > has some other goals for GAE that don't deal directly with its
> > > viability as a business.  One is to educate programmers in the Google
> > > way of doing things.  I'm sure Google has been fustrated with tons of
> > > amazing job applicants with advanced degrees, 10+ years of WWW
> > > experience, and the inability work with anything but PHP and SQL.
> > > Another is that they want to make even easier for people to create WWW
> > > sites, the sort of small little sites that through AdWords/AdSense,
> > > Google has made billions.)
> >
> > > Ultimately, what matters is what you want and what Google is willing
> > > give you.   It doesn't matter what 99% developers want. The are number
> > > of problems and limitations with GAE that will be fixed.  You can look
> > > at the issue database to get and idea of what these are.  However,
> > > there are no timelines, so don't plan anything being fixed tommorow or
> > > even a year from now.  Many limitations will always be there.  You're
> > > never going to get all the functionality of an SQL database, nor will
> > > GAE be suitable for computationally intensive tasks.
> >
> > > Look at a GAE, and see if it offers it what you want as it is now.  If
> > > it's close but not quite there maybe play around with it, maybe go so
> > > far as making a proof of concept of something.  On the other hand, if
> > > GAE is far away from what you want, then walk away.  GAE isn't for
> > > you, and probably won't ever be.  Maybe check back in a year or so,
> > > but now you should be looking for another hosting solution.
> >
> > >                               Ross Ridge
> >
>

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