thanks! that's exactly the kind of informed reply I need. On Jun 3, 7:24 pm, Jeff Schnitzer <[email protected]> wrote: > Heh, I remember this experience well. > > GWThas a steep learning curve. If you have a sophisticated UI, it is > totally worth it - but prepare for a struggle to achieve proficiency. > WritingGWTapps is much more like writing Swing/MFC/etc fat client > apps than it is like writing traditional web apps. GWT'slearning > curve is also complicated by the lack of any good step-by-step process > for climbing it. There's a ton of documentation on the web about the > various pieces but it's pretty unstructured. And a lot of the newer > bits are very lightly documented. > > My advice is to avoid the more complicated bits at first. Don't try > to use RequestFactory or MVP or any of the other complicated stuff you > won't immediately recognize the rationale for. Does this mean you may > want to massively refactor your application sometime in the future? > Perhaps, but at least you'll have a working app to refactor. > > If you have a "single-page app" one thing you *will* want to use up > front is the history management (aka Places). This stuff is *really* > hard to retrofit later. > > Follow the agile approach - go with the simplest solution that works, > then refactor later when you need more sophisticated behavior. Be > familiar with the complex features ofGWTso you know what to look for > later, but don't learn them now. You'll have a hard enough time > detangling events and widget behaviors and (ugh) visual design. > > Jeff > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 7:59 AM,rhubarb<[email protected]> wrote: > > I'm finally getting around to starting an app engine project, years > > after first downloading and playing with the python-only version - I > > find myself back at square 1 with the java version. I need some advice > > on getting started. > > > Typically I find myself blocked from starting by a bewildering number > > of technology choices that seem to need to be made up front: java vs > > python,gwtvs javascript, objectify vs twig vs jdo, etc etc. All of > > these choices tend to lead me into massive research projects which, > > while - truth be told - I thoroughly enjoy the research, eventually > > result in so much inertia at the start of the project that it never > > gets off the ground. > > > I'm sure a lot of you can relate. > > > So let me lay out where my head is now. > > Basic goals: > > - I want to build a web app that will eventually have millions of > > users (who doesn't, but hey, let me dream for a moment) > > > - I've decided to go with Java. Let's not even discuss it - I'm > > comfortable with Java (though not really with J2EE). > > > - I agonized for some time overGWTvs pure Javascript, like YUI. I > > kind of favour YUI, because I don't really like working in a language > > that generates the language I actually need - that tends to lead to > > maintenance headaches and compromises in functionality. > > Nonetheless, I've decided to go withGWTnow, because it seems easier > > to get started that way, and I can code and debug in Eclipse, with > > which I'm very familiar. > > Let's not discuss that choice either, other than to consider that I > > would like to have the option to pull back fromGWTsome time in the > > future and put a YUI front end on my java backend if need be. > > > - Having got that far, I went into the GAE documentation, and got as > > far as the datastore documentation when the little blue box detailing > > framework alternatives to JDO and JPA - then got sidetracked again, of > > course... > > On the one hand I'm very familar with Hibernate, so JPA was tempting - > > and might help with future independence from GAE. > > Note that these startup decisions are always plagued by doubts about > > what happens in the future, when the fact is the doubts tend to ensure > > that the future never comes about :( Future independence be damned, > > let's just concentrate on the project getting started so it has a > > future. > > So anyway, I was drawn in briefly by Slim3, and then gave it up in > > favor of Objectify. > > (Note I still haven't written byte-one of this code - these are all > > just vaporware decisions right now). > > I like Objectify because it's simple enough to use and close enough to > > pure GAE that I'm not really tying myself down. > > > That decision made, I'm ready to get started... > > > But wait: reading about objectify, lead me to a Google IO video on > > Objectify with Request Factory. (http://www.youtube.com/watch? > > v=imiquTOLl64&feature=player_embedded#at=2066). Now, I was almost > > ready to resist this and just get started, but I went through a > > tutorial on creating and understanding the standard GAE/GWTproject - > > mostly theGWTside - and I was kind of bothered by the huge amount of > > boilerplate involved: all of those interfaces, serverImpls and client- > > sides for every widget/page. So I watched and was impressed by that > > presentation. > > > But of course, it lead right into another presentation by Philippe > > Beaudoin on GWTP > >http://code.google.com/p/gwt-platform/. This turns out to a fork of > > two other technologies to reduceGWTboilerplate:gwt-dispatch andgwt- > > presenter. Argh, here we go - they fork, I fork, and off I am on > > another technology reading binge. > > > That's about as far as I got - I was already to start coding using > > GWTP when I pulled back for a moment and realized that I was maybe > > getting in too deep. GWTP has a nice bunch of documentation behind it, > > won't it be easier, in my first go at my first app, to just start with > > the basics from Google. I mean Objectify for persistence, sure, its > > easy enough to grok, and low-level persistence seems very trivial > > anyway, but for presentation, perhaps I'm better off just writing all > > of that boilerplate for now, hmm? > > > Another thing to consider here, is that all of these developers who > > are using packages like GWTP, and developing them and blogging about > > then, all come from a background of having started with the basics, > > and worked their way through the alternatives. Some of that results in > > their documentation being slanted by that knowledge and less > > accessible to someone just getting started. > > > What do you all think? Should I go it the hard way to start with and > > build with pureGWTbased on the main google samples? Or jump right in > > with a framework? > > > thanks for reading this far - and sorry for the totalnoobquestions > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Google App Engine" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en.
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