Dileep, others, Please do suggest what we can do as a group, given the present situation ..
Delhi, Chengara Solidarity Group met a few days back: It was decided to: - follow up with the 2 Commissions - NCW and NHRC through new connections, as both were not giving us appointments earlier. appointments by second week of October - update the memorandum for the commissions - (so please give us any new information) - draft an english/malayalam piece looking at the dalit and adivasi land rights struggle taking place in Sonbhadra, UP,and in Chengara - meet with Trade Unions (the list of trade unions is yet to be finalised/discussed). For this we are preparing a fact sheet on Chengara looking at all the arguments put forth by the left and many trade unionists in kerala, and giving relevant information to counter those. jenny 2008/10/7 jenny rowena <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Dear Gouri, > > Have not so far come across any writing on Satyagraha by Ambedkar. > > After Gandhi's adoption of this term, most non-violent struggles were > routinely called Sathyagraha. > > Though Gandhian theory on Sathyagraha actually went beyond just non-violent > resistance, > > and attributed new values to it...This has already been discussed here from > many perspectives. > > See above and other threads.. > > > jenny > > > > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Gouri Patwardhan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > >> >> As far as I know the agitation for the access to the water tank in >> Mahad that Dr. Ambedkar led was called Mahad chowdar Tale (Chowdar >> tank) Satyagraha. I don't know if Dr. Ambedkar called it Satyagraha. >> Has he written explicitly about Satyagraha? >> Gouri >> >> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 7:25 PM, jenny rowena <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> > Aryan, I found Nizar's arguments not to have any relevance to >> > understanding the present. that is the political >> > reason for my posting here.. >> > >> > waiting to read ur piece.. >> > >> > jenny >> > >> > \\On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:25 PM, aryakrishnan ramakrishnan >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Jenny,Luisa,Ranju, >> >> >> >> My interest in engaging in this kind of exercise is related to >> >> understanding the present. which is more political than historical. >> >> History do help in major ways but sometimes the novelty, >> >> innovations, and surprises won't be captured due to overhistoricising. >> >> >> >> One has to be theoretically inventive, creative and commited in order >> to >> >> theorise the present. >> >> >> >> Thus I found Nizar's proposition interesting. Arguing with it will also >> >> be productive, as this debate increasingly show. >> >> >> >> I will share my reading of Chengara struggle in anorganised manner >> soon. >> >> triggering rich theoretical work in itself is an indication of the >> >> creativity of the movement. >> >> It isn't at all an attempt to negate agency to Dalit activists in >> Chengara >> >> and ascribe it to Gandhi ! I personally take the social reality as >> >> indeterminate, calling for >> >> various theoretical frameworks. >> >> >> >> >> >> Luisa, >> >> To be frank, Nizar himeself (in an interview published in a Malayalam >> >> journal) called Bin Laden >> >> "violent Gandhi". considering their position on civilisation. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:09 PM, jenny rowena <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Friends, >> >> > >> >> > 1. Given the new turn in the discussions to read Gandhi as a text, >> both >> >> > by >> >> > Ahmed in an another thread >> >> > and by Devika here... what i am writing here is also an attempt to >> read >> >> > Gandhi's philosophy.. >> >> > Actually i have done it earlier too in talking about the concept of >> >> > Sathyagraha... >> >> > However Ahmed i know that some readings always gets better visibility >> >> > than >> >> > others.. >> >> > >> >> > 2. Dileep, most of the points that you have written about Sathyagraha >> >> > can be >> >> > shared by any >> >> > non-violent and even violent resistance as Luisa pointed out.. >> >> > The core to what distinguishes Gandhian Sathyagraha from other forms >> of >> >> > non-violent resistance >> >> > is the fact that here there is an insistence on suffering, >> self-injury, >> >> > truth and other ideals >> >> > like patience, sympathy, weaning, love... etc.. >> >> > -- let me quote again from Gandhi's own text... >> >> > >> >> > Its root meaning is holding onto truth, hence truth-force. I have >> also >> >> > called it love-force or soul-force. In the application of satyagraha, >> I >> >> > discovered in the earliest stages that pursuit of truth did not admit >> of >> >> > violence being inflicted on one's opponent but that he must be weaned >> >> > from >> >> > error by patience and sympathy. For what appears to be truth to the >> one >> >> > may >> >> > appear to be error to the other. And patience means self-suffering. >> So >> >> > the >> >> > doctrine came to mean vindication of truth, not by infliction of >> >> > suffering >> >> > on the opponent, but on oneself... >> >> > >> >> > In an earlier mail to Dileep, I had already talked about this to >> which >> >> > Dileep wrote: >> >> > >> >> > ??>6.The point you raise, that, it is not a choice but forced >> situation, >> >> > doesn't nullify such a proposition. >> >> > >> >> > Let me elaborate my point further... >> >> > >> >> > The whole Gandhian idea of winning over, patience, love, suffering >> etc.. >> >> > imagines a struggle, where >> >> > the resisting party is already placed in some kind of a negotiating >> >> > position.. >> >> > Where she can still be patient, suffer, wean, wait it out, talk about >> >> > love, >> >> > etc etc.. >> >> > In other words, where she is able to somewhere make a connection with >> >> > the opponent from his present situation and wean him into give in.. >> >> > >> >> > This is Sathyagraha for you.. For an excellent illustration see Lage >> >> > Raho >> >> > Munna Bhai.. >> >> > >> >> > What i am saying is this... >> >> > this kind of an approach might not be available to Dalit Bahujan and >> >> > other >> >> > politically oppressed people >> >> > whose political position has given them less than human-lives and >> >> > intense >> >> > SUFFERING for >> >> > centuries after centuries, >> >> > >> >> > PATIENCE AND SUFFERING AND LOVE as IDEALS, JUST MIGHT NOT APPEAL TO >> THEM >> >> > >> >> > Because patience and love are not essentialized and naturally given >> >> > ideals >> >> > and they need a cultural context to be made into a reality and to >> >> > survive.. >> >> > >> >> > So one can conclude that sathyagraha is a very savarna middle-class >> >> > ideal, >> >> > with its use and uselessness... >> >> > >> >> > And most Gandhian ideals are like this... >> >> > Gandhian philosophy is also like this... >> >> > >> >> > You really cannot stop reading Gandhi's own identity into his >> political >> >> > and >> >> > philosophical formulations.. >> >> > You meet it there in his text as well as in his action.. >> >> > And then you realize that he cannot be easily transplanted into >> >> > subaltern >> >> > locations and positions.. >> >> > neither to understand subaltern struggles or politics.. And this is >> >> > where >> >> > Ambedkar's analysis >> >> > begins to become important.. >> >> > >> >> > Some more points on what Devika said: >> >> > >> >> >>>I don't think saying that the activists at Chengara are using the >> >> >>> techniques of satyagraha automatically reduces them to >Gandhi's >> >> >>> politics or >> >> >>> denies their innovativeness. >> >> > >> >> >>>Satyagraha has always been an idea capacious enough to allow >> multiple >> >> >>> uses >> >> >>> and interpretations. >> >> >>>I have a feeling the activists at Chengara could be seen as >> innovating >> >> >>> on >> >> >>> it in a strikingly anti-Gandhian spirit and to ?>diametrically >> >> >>> opposite >> >> >>> ends. >> >> > >> >> > If Chengara struggle has "innovatively moved" out of Gandhian >> Sathyagra >> >> > and >> >> > is also "anti Gandhian", then why is Nizar Ahmed and others compelled >> to >> >> > see >> >> > "Gandhian" ideals in it? >> >> > >> >> > I really really cannot understand.......except by thinking of >> dogmatism >> >> > - >> >> > this is not a personal comment, but i really cannot understand thisd >> >> > phenomena otherwise... . >> >> > >> >> > To end, let me just say that... the Chengara struggle is a Dalit >> >> > struggle, >> >> > with ideas, ideals and philosophy mainly drawn from Ambedkar and >> >> > Ayyankali.. >> >> > And this is what the struggling people in Chengara are telling us.. >> And >> >> > this >> >> > is the philiosophy that India/Kerala culture has no access to. >> Saturated >> >> > as >> >> > we have been with Gandhi and Gandhians for so long.. >> >> > >> >> > We want the ideals and ideas of Ambedkar, Ayyankali and other Dalit >> >> > Bahujan >> >> > thinkers, who take CASTE as one of the most important >> >> > analytical category for any kind of analysis. >> >> > >> >> > We reject the Savarna ideals of Gandhi's philosophy and persona and >> >> > recognize him and his writings as the spokesperson/philosophy of the >> >> > HIndu >> >> > caste system, which is one of the most oppressive power structures in >> >> > India >> >> > today... >> >> > >> >> > If we are to think about Gandhi please don't assimilate Dalit >> struggles >> >> > into >> >> > Gandhism. In stead tell us how Gandhi is relevant for Dalit Bahujan >> >> > Minority >> >> > Gender and Sexual politics.. and which of his philosophy and which >> text >> >> > we >> >> > must read for this..... >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > jenny >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:39 PM, ranju radha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Before branding Chengara struggle as Gandhian, do these >> intellectuals >> >> >> ever >> >> >> felt for a second to think about how Dalits waged their freedom >> >> >> movement >> >> >> agansit brahminism? DO they refer back to find out the nature of >> >> >> struggle >> >> >> that Ambedkar led? genealogy of Dalit Struggles can't be find in >> Gandhi >> >> >> and >> >> >> Gandhism. there is a history of such struggles. Chengara could be >> >> >> traced >> >> >> back to that history. >> >> >> for me, NIsar's reading is yet another attempt to mask that history >> of >> >> >> struggles by Dalits. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
