It is pointless to attempt to respond to all the preposterous claims made. If Bush had attacked Iraq and killed Iraqis then Saddam must be a saint! As if Saddam didn't kill and suppress Iraqis. And Kurds. And Shia minorities. And political opposition including Communists. As if he did not receive at least tacit American support in his war against Iran.
Similarly, almost the whole of the Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party under Lenin, which had carried out the October Revolution, was physically liquidated by Stalin. Apart from millions others. In Mao's China, between 1958 and 61, during the Great Leap Forward, around 30 million extra deaths took place. No one mourned. No one talked of. The scale of the devastation is no doubt mind boggling. What is far more startling is the fact that the fact of this huge tragedy would be deciphered years thereafter by foreign experts by scanning and interpreting the demographic data of that period. What a monstrous order! The Communist Manifesto tells us that in socialism "free development of each is the condition for the free development of all". What a hugely tragic mockery they have made of that lofty dream! Sukla On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:10 PM, rogerraven <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Stalin is like Napoleon and Sadam Hussein Stalin no more believed in > > Marxist Leninism than Napoleon believed in Liberty, fraternity and > > equality or Hussein believed in either Islam or socialism. > > Stalin is responsible for the deaths of millions of Soviet citizens > > including the bulk of the original Politbureau. Napoleon used > > idealistic young Poles to put down the democratic revolution in Haiti. > > Hussein bombed Mosques when unarmed Shii took refuge there. > > Over time, both Mao and Zimbabwe 's Mugabe went gradually went from > > being a Lenin to a Stalin . > > Exactly what a CIA spokesman would have said. So G.W. Bush never started an > invasion that killed up to a million Iraqis? Nor bombed mosques or > civilians? His father didn't invoke sanctions that killed a quarter of a > million Iraqi under-5s? I am not quite as anxious to conceal the greater > crimes of capitalism. > > But this thread has the potential to tease out a more enlightened approach > to the issues of Stalin versus the USSR – for those not so keen on blanket > denunciation of socialism. > > So what of those who fought to win the Great (am I allowed to call it > Great?) October Socialist Revolution, or with the Chinese Communist Party in > the civil component of the Chinese-Japanese War? Were they deluded fools who > deserved to die? > > A mature and thinking socialist should accept that both the Russian and > Chinese Revolutions were worth fighting for, so those who did so should be > respected rather than reviled by safe, comfortable, and well-fed pretend > socialists half a century later. > > That those Revolutions didn't turn out better is not the fault of those who > wanted a better future, whatever such apologists for the Right may say. > Criticism of the conduct of the leaders is very different to and absolutely > does not require denial of the very real gains of those Revolutions. Those > who do the latter are supporters of reaction and ruling class oppression, > whatever pretence they use to cloak their true nature. > > Nor did the debates in the Western Left of the time seem to be much of an > improvement on the standard that applies now, or define any useful > alternative to the paths followed by the USSR and PRC, either then or now. > Indeed, the last is a substantial omission from the recent set of Links > articles on the PRC (see http://links.org.au/node/1270); I'd urge that > journal to remedy it. > > __._,_.___ > Messages in this topic > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion/message/67037;_ylc=X3oDMTM2Y3FwcTgxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzkyMzc3NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwNjgyBG1zZ0lkAzY3MDc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI1NDk4NDA1NQR0cGNJZAM2NzAzNw-->( > 8) Reply (via web post) > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZ3BuNmVkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzkyMzc3NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwNjgyBG1zZ0lkAzY3MDc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTI1NDk4NDA1NQ--?act=reply&messageNum=67075>| > Start > a new topic > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcm9hbnJxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzkyMzc3NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwNjgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI1NDk4NDA1NQ--> > > Messages<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMXJza3U1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzkyMzc3NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwNjgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTI1NDk4NDA1NQ--> > Green Left Weekly depends on your support! > > Subscribe to Green Left Weekly! > http://www.greenleft.org.au/subscribe.htm > > Make a donation to help Green Left Weekly continue! > http://www.greenleft.org.au/fogl.htm > > [image: Yahoo! > Groups]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNWhiMTJvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzkyMzc3NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwNjgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjU0OTg0MDU1> > Change settings via the > Web<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmM25rNWZoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzkyMzc3NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwNjgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyNTQ5ODQwNTU->(Yahoo! > ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily > Digest<[email protected]?subject=email+delivery:+Digest>| > Switch > format to > Traditional<[email protected]?subject=change+delivery+format:+Traditional> > Visit Your Group > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWVwMDI1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzkyMzc3NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwNjgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjU0OTg0MDU1>| > Yahoo! > Groups Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> | Unsubscribe > <[email protected]?subject=> > Recent Activity > > > Visit Your Group > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbmZuM2gyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzkyMzc3NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwNjgyBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTI1NDk4NDA1NQ--> > Give Back > > Yahoo! for > Good<http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJtZXRrYnI5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDOTIzNzc3NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjA2ODIEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawNicmFuZARzdGltZQMxMjU0OTg0MDU1;_ylg=1/SIG=11314uv3k/**http%3A//brand.yahoo.com/forgood> > > Get inspired > > by a good cause. > Y! 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