Putin's Feb. 21 speech: "Ukraine intends to create its own nuclear weapons, and this is not just bragging." (Ref.: < https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/us/politics/putin-ukraine-nuclear-weapons.html?smid=url-share >.)
The following is the relevant portion of Zelensky's speech at Munich where he aired his frustrations over the utter uselessness of the guarantees provided under the Budapest Memorandum: *<<Ukraine has received security guarantees for abandoning the world’s third nuclear capability. We don’t have that weapon. We also have no security*. [Emphasis added.] We also do not have part of the territory of our state that is larger in area than Switzerland, the Netherlands or Belgium. And most importantly – we don’t have millions of our citizens. We don’t have all this. *Therefore, we have something. The right to demand a shift from a policy of appeasement to ensuring security and peace guarantees*. [Emphasis added.] Since 2014, Ukraine has tried three times to convene consultations with the guarantor states of the Budapest Memorandum. Three times without success. Today Ukraine will do it for the fourth time. I, as President, will do this for the first time. But both Ukraine and I are doing this for the last time. *I am initiating consultations in the framework of the Budapest Memorandum. The Minister of Foreign Affairs was commissioned to convene them. If they do not happen again or their results do not guarantee security for our country, Ukraine will have every right to believe that the Budapest Memorandum is not working and all the package decisions of 1994 are in doubt*. [Emphasis added.] *I also propose to convene a summit of permanent members of the UN Security Council in the coming weeks with the participation of Ukraine, Germany and Turkey in order to address security challenges in Europe. And elaborate new, effective security guarantees for Ukraine. Guarantees today, as long as we are not a member of the Alliance and in fact are in the gray zone – in a security vacuum*. [Emphasis added.]>> (Ref.: < https://kyivindependent.com/national/zelenskys-full-speech-at-munich-security-conference/ >.) So, that's what he said: *The Budapest Memorandum is proving useless and when the remaining doubts also evaporate, an alternate security arrangement for Ukraine would be direly called for; in anticipation and towards that end a summit of the permanent members of the UNSC is proposed*. *Forget about feasibility and all such mundane issues, how does one discover even the faintest hint of the threat to go nuclear in all that!!!?* Sukla On Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 07:02 [email protected] < [email protected]> wrote: > Unfortunately you may well be right. > > On Wednesday, 20 April 2022, 05:38:25 am AEST, Mark Gubrud < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Zelensky's comments at the Munich Security Conference were reckless. > I don't think he intended, nor is it reasonable to interpret his > statements as > a threat to acquire nuclear weapons, something Ukraine was and is in no > position to do. But he could not have avoided awareness that people would > take his statements that way, and he made no effort to explicitly disown > the > implication. It should have been perfectly obvious that Russia would use > his comments for propaganda. Putin himself went further, charging that > Ukraine posed a nuclear threat to Russia. I think I understand Zelensky's > intentions in making the comments, but it was a bad move. > > Mark > > > ----------------------------- > Mark Avrum Gubrud > [email protected] > +1 (202) 468-5899 > twitter: @mgubrud > blog: gubrud.net > > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 4:31 AM Sukla Sen <[email protected]> wrote: > > Sanger (ref.: < > https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/us/politics/putin-ukraine-nuclear-weapons.html?smid=url-share>) > had quoted from Putin's Feb. 21 speech: "Ukraine intends to create its > own nuclear weapons, and this is not just bragging." > > The following is the relevant portion of Zelensky's speech at Munich where > he aired his frustrations over the utter uselessness of the guarantees > provided under the Budapest Memorandum: > > <<*Ukraine has received security guarantees for abandoning the world’s > third nuclear capability. We don’t have that weapon. We also have no > security. *[Emphasis added.] We also do not have part of the territory of > our state that is larger in area than Switzerland, the Netherlands or > Belgium. And most importantly – we don’t have millions of our citizens. We > don’t have all this. > > *Therefore, we have something. The right to demand a shift from a policy > of appeasement to ensuring security and peace guarantees*. [Emphasis > added.] > > Since 2014, Ukraine has tried three times to convene consultations with > the guarantor states of the Budapest Memorandum. Three times without > success. Today Ukraine will do it for the fourth time. I, as President, > will do this for the first time. But both Ukraine and I are doing this for > the last time. *I* *am initiating consultations in the framework of the > Budapest Memorandum. The Minister of Foreign Affairs was commissioned to > convene them. If they do not happen again or their results do not guarantee > security for our country, Ukraine will have every right to believe that the > Budapest Memorandum is not working and all the package decisions of 1994 > are in doubt*. [Emphasis added.] > > *I* *also propose to convene a summit of permanent members of the UN > Security Council in the coming weeks with the participation of Ukraine, > Germany and Turkey in order to address security challenges in Europe. And > elaborate new, effective security guarantees for Ukraine. Guarantees today, > as long as we are not a member of the Alliance and in fact are in the gray > zone – in a security vacuum*. [Emphasis added.]>> > > (Ref.: < > https://kyivindependent.com/national/zelenskys-full-speech-at-munich-security-conference/ > >.) > > So, that's what he said: *The Budapest Memorandum is proving useless and > when the remaining doubts also evaporate, an alternate security arrangement > for Ukraine would be direly called for; in anticipation and towards that > end a summit of the permanent members of the UNSC is proposed*. > > Forget about feasibility and all such mundane issues, how does one > *discover* even the faintest hint of the threat to go nuclear in all > that!!!? > No issue. If it can't be *discovered*, then it has to be invented. > > Sukla > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2022, 10:14 Steven Starr <[email protected]> wrote: > > > https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-nukes/ > Ukraine & Nukes > March 3, 2022 > > <http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-nukes/> > <http://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=Ukraine%20&%20Nukes&url=https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-nukes/> > <https://plus.google.com/share?url=https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-nukes/> > <http://www.digg.com/submit?url=https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-nukes/> > <http://reddit.com/submit?url=https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-nukes/&title=Ukraine%20&%20Nukes> > <http://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-nukes/> > <http://www.stumbleupon.com/submit?url=https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-nukes/&title=Ukraine%20&%20Nukes> > <http://www.tumblr.com/share/link?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconsortiumnews.com%2F2022%2F03%2F03%2Fukraine-nukes%2F&name=Ukraine+%26%23038%3B+Nukes> > Save > > <?Subject=Ukraine%20&%20Nukes&Body=Here%20is%20the%20link%20to%20the%20article:%20https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-nukes/> > > *After a New York Times reporter grossly distorted what Putin and Zelensky > have said and done about nuclear weapons, Steven Starr corrects the record > and deplores Western media, in general, for misinforming and leading the > entire world in a dangerous direction.* > > U.S. troops arrive at Nuremberg International Airport on Feb. 28 to join > the NATO Response Force. which was activated for the first time in history > in a collective defence context. (NATO) > > *By Steven Starr* > *Special to Consortium News* > > *The New York Times* recently published an article by David Sanger > entitled “Putin spins a conspiracy theory that Ukraine is on a path to > produce nuclear weapons.” > <https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/us/politics/putin-ukraine-nuclear-weapons.html> > Unfortunately, it is Sanger who puts so much spin in his reporting that he > leaves his readers with a grossly distorted version of the what the > presidents of Russia and Ukraine have said and done. > > Ukrainian Volodymyr Zelensky’s recent statements at the Munich conference > <https://kyivindependent.com/national/zelenskys-full-speech-at-munich-security-conference/> > centered > around the 1994 Budapest Memorandum > <http://www.pircenter.org/media/content/files/12/13943175580.pdf>, which > welcomed Ukraine’s accession to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty > <https://www.un.org/disarmament/wmd/nuclear/npt/text/> (NPT) in > conjunction with Ukraine’s decision to return to Russia the nuclear weapons > left on its territory by the Soviet Union. > > In other words, the Budapest Memorandum was expressly about Ukraine giving > up its nukes and not becoming a nuclear weapon state in the future. > Zelensky’s speech at Munich made it clear that Ukraine was moving to > repudiate the Budapest Memorandum; Zelensky essentially stated that Ukraine > must be made a member of NATO, otherwise it would acquire nuclear weapons. > > This is what Zelensky said, with emphasis added: > > “I want to believe that the North Atlantic Treaty and Article 5 will be > more effective than the Budapest Memorandum. > > Ukraine has received security guarantees for abandoning the world’s third > nuclear capability [i.e. Ukraine relinquished the Soviet nuclear weapons > that had been placed in Ukraine during the Cold War]. *We don’t have that > weapon. … Therefore, we have something. The right to demand a shift from a > policy of appeasement to ensuring security and peace guarantees. * > > Since 2014, Ukraine has tried three times to convene consultations with > the guarantor states of the Budapest Memorandum. Three times without > success. . . I am initiating consultations in the framework of the Budapest > Memorandum. The Minister of Foreign Affairs was commissioned to convene > them. If they do not happen again or their results do not guarantee > security for our country, Ukraine will have every right to believe that the > Budapest Memorandum is not working and all the package decisions of 1994 > are in doubt. . . > > I am initiating consultations in the framework of the Budapest Memorandum. > The Minister of Foreign Affairs was commissioned to convene them. If they > do not happen again or their results do not guarantee security for our > country, *Ukraine will have every right to believe that the Budapest > Memorandum is not working and all the package decisions of 1994 are in > doubt*.” > > Sanger’s *Times* article implies that it was a “conspiracy theory” that > Zelensky was calling for Ukraine to acquire nuclear weapons. Sanger was not > ignorant of the meaning of the Budapest Memorandum, rather he chose to > deliberately ignore it and misrepresented the facts. > > President Vladimir Putin, along with the majority of Russians, could not > ignore such a threat for a number of historical reasons that *The New > York Times* and ideologues such as Sanger have also chosen to ignore. It > is important to list some of those facts, since most Americans are unaware > of them, as they have not been reported in the Western mainstream media. > Leaving parts of the story out turns Putin into just a madman bent on > conquest without any reason to intervene. > > First, both the provinces of Donetsk and Lugansk in the Donbass region > voted for independence from Ukraine in 2014 in resistance to a U.S.-backed > coup that overthrew the elected president Viktor Yanukovych in February of > that year. The independence vote came just eight days after neo-Nazis > burned > <https://consortiumnews.com/2014/05/10/burning-ukraines-protesters-alive/> > dozens of ethnic Russians alive in Odessa. To crush their bid for > independence, the new U.S.-installed Ukrainian government then launched an > “anti-terrorist” war against the provinces, with the assistance of the > neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, which had taken part in the coup. It is a war that > is still going on eight years later, a war that Russia has just entered. > > During these eight years, the Ukrainian Armed Forces and Azov have used > artillery, snipers and assassination teams to systematically butcher more > than 5,000 people > <https://www.thecitizen.co.tz/tanzania/news/international/how-many-lives-has-the-war-in-donbass-taken--3724098> > (another 8,000 were wounded) — mostly civilians — in the Donetsk Peoples > Republic, according to the leader of the DPR, > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjslRUf0SDU> who provided these figures > in a press conference recently. In the Luhansk People’s Republic, an > additional 2,000 civilians were killed and 3,365 injured. The total number > of people killed and wounded in Donbass since 2014 is more than 18,000. > > This has received at most superficial coverage by *The New York Times*; > it has not been covered by Western corporate media because it does not fit > the official Washington narrative that Ukraine is pursuing an > “anti-terrorist operation” in its unrelenting attacks on the people of > Donbass. For eight years the war instead has been portrayed as a Russian > “invasion,” well before Russia’s current intervention. > > Likewise, *The New York Times, *in its overall coverage*, *chose not to > report that the Ukrainian forces had deployed half of its army, about 125,000 > troops > <https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-ukraine-has-deployed-half-its-army-donbass-conflict-zone-2021-12-01/>, > to > its border with Donbass by the beginning of 2022. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjslRUf0SDU&feature=emb_title > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjslRUf0SDU&feature=emb_title> > Anti Ukraine DPR Leader Holds Press Conference For Foreign For Journalists > (ENGLISH) - YouTube > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjslRUf0SDU&feature=emb_title> > DPR Head Press Conference For Foreign For JournalistThe Head of the > Donetsk People's Republic, Denis Pushilin met with Journalists from all > over the world to... > www.youtube.com > > The importance of neo-Nazi Right Sektor politicians in the Ukraine > government > <https://consortiumnews.com/2022/02/26/robert-parry-the-mess-that-nuland-made/> > and > neo-Nazi militias (such as the Azov Battalion) > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion> to the Ukrainian Armed > Forces, also goes unreported in the mainstream corporate media. The Azov > battalion flies Nazi flags > <https://newcoldwar.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Azov-Battalion-neo-Nazis-Aug-2014-photo-Tom-Parfitt-Telegraph-2.jpg>; > they have been trained by teams of U.S. military advisers > <https://adarapress.com/2022/02/27/ukraines-azov-battalion-has-received-teams-of-american-military-advisors-and-high-powered-us-made-weapons/> > and praised on Facebook these days. > <https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-battalion-russia/> > In 2014, Azov was incorporated in the Ukrainian National Guard under the > direction of the Interior Ministry. > > The Nazis killed something on the order of 27 million Soviets/Russians > during World War II (the U.S. lost 404,000). Russia has not forgotten and > is extremely sensitive to any threats and violence coming from neo-Nazis. > Americans generally do not understand what this means to Russians as the > United States has never been invaded. > > So, when the leader of Ukraine essentially threatens to obtain nuclear > weapons, this is most certainly considered to be an existential threat to > Russia. That is why Putin focused on this during his speech preceding the > Russian invasion of Ukraine. Sanger and *The New York Times* must > discount a Ukrainian nuclear threat; they can get away with doing so > because they have systematically omitted news pertaining to this for many > years. > > Sanger makes a very misleading statement when he writes, “Today Ukraine > does not even have the basic infrastructure to produce nuclear fuel.” > > Ukraine is not interested in making nuclear fuel — which Ukraine already > purchases > from the U.S > <https://www.westinghousenuclear.com/sweden/om-oss/nyheter/view/westinghouse-significantly-expands-fuel-supply-in-ukraine-1>. > Ukraine has plenty of plutonium, which is commonly used to make nuclear > weapons today; eight years ago Ukraine held more than 50 tons of plutonium > <https://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/Civil_Plutonium_Stocks_Worldwide_November_16_2015_FINAL.pdf> > in its spent fuel assemblies stored at its many nuclear power plants > (probably considerably more today, as the reactors have continued to run > and produce spent fuel). Once plutonium is reprocessed/separated from spent > nuclear fuel, it becomes weapons usable. Putin noted that Ukraine already > has missiles that could carry nuclear warheads, and they certainly have > scientists capable of developing reprocessing facilities and building > nuclear weapons. > > In his Feb. 21 televised address, Putin said > <https://www.riotimesonline.com/brazil-news/modern-day-censorship/president-putins-full-text-of-february-21-2022-speech-to-the-nation/> > Ukraine still has the infrastructure leftover from Soviet days to build a > bomb. He said: > > “As we know, it has already been stated today that Ukraine intends to > create its own nuclear weapons, and this is not just bragging. > > Ukraine has the nuclear technologies created back in the Soviet times and > delivery vehicles for such weapons, including aircraft, as well as the > Soviet-designed Tochka-U precision tactical missiles with a range of over > 100 kilometers. > > But they can do more; it is only a matter of time. They have had the > groundwork for this since the Soviet era. > > In other words, acquiring tactical nuclear weapons will be much easier for > Ukraine than for some other states I am not going to mention here, which > are conducting such research, especially if Kiev receives foreign > technological support. We cannot rule this out either. > > If Ukraine acquires weapons of mass destruction, the situation in the > world and in Europe will drastically change, especially for us, for Russia. > We cannot but react to this real danger, all the more so since let me > repeat, Ukraine’s Western patrons may help it acquire these weapons to > create yet another threat to our country.” > > *NATO-US Refuse Binding Nuclear Treaties* > > In his *Times* piece, Sanger states, “American officials have said > repeatedly that they have no plans to place nuclear weapons in Ukraine.” > > But the U.S. and NATO have refused to sign legally binding treaties with > Russia to this effect. In reality, the U.S. has been making Ukraine a de > facto member of NATO, while training and supplying its military forces and > conducting joint exercises on Ukrainian territory. Why wouldn’t the U.S. > place nuclear weapons in Ukraine — they have already done so at military > bases within the borders of five other European members of NATO > <https://fas.org/blogs/security/2021/10/steadfastnoon2021/>. This in > fact violates the spirit of the NPT, another issue that Sanger avoids when > he notes that Russia has demanded that the U.S. remove nuclear weapons from > the European NATO-member states. > > For years the U.S. proclaimed that the Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) > facilities it was placing in Romania and Poland, on the Russian border, > were to protect against an “Iranian threat,” even though Iran had no > nuclear weapons or missiles that could reach the U.S. But the dual-use Mark > 41 launching systems > <https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/naval-launchers-and-munitions/MK41-VLS-product-card.pdf>used > in the Aegis Ashore BMD facilities can be used to launch Tomahawk cruise > missiles, and will be fitted with SM-6 missiles > <https://www.raytheonmissilesanddefense.com/what-we-do/missile-defense/interceptors/sm-6-missile> > that, > if armed with nuclear warheads, could hit Moscow in five-to-six minutes. > Putin explicitly warned journalists > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo> about this danger in 2016; > Russia included the removal of the U.S. BMD facilities in Romania and > Poland in its draft treaties > <https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/12/21/russias-draft-agreements-with-nato-and-the-united-states-intended-for-rejection/> > presented > to the U.S. and NATO last December. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo&feature=emb_title > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo&feature=emb_title> > Putin's Warning: FULL SPEECH - YouTube > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo&feature=emb_title> > Initially, I translated only a small portion of this segment as I felt the > key message must be made obvious. However, I have been pleasantly surprised > with m... > www.youtube.com > > I wonder if Sanger has ever considered what the U.S. response would be if > Russia placed missile launching facilities on the Canadian or Mexican > border? Would the U.S. consider that a threat, would it demand that Russia > remove them or else the U.S. would use military means to do so? > > *30 Years Ago * > > Sanger states that today Russia takes a “starkly different from the tone > Moscow was taking 30 years ago, when Russian nuclear scientists were being > voluntarily retrained to use their skills for peaceful purposes.” > > Russians would reply that 30 years ago NATO had not moved to Russian > borders and was not flooding Ukraine with hundreds of tons of weapons and > the U.S. had not yet overthrown the government in Kiev to install an > anti-Russian regime. > > While the *Times* is still considered the U.S. “paper of record,” during > the last few decades it has devolved into the primary mouthpiece for the > official narratives coming from Washington. > > There is a real danger to the nation when a free press is replaced with > corporate media that stifles and censors dissent. Rather than a free press, > we now have a Ministry of Propaganda that acts as an echo chamber for the > latest diktats from the White House. The systematic creation of false > narratives by corporate media, designed to serve the purposes of the > federal government, have so misinformed the American public about world > events that we find the nation ready to go to war with Russia. > > This is suicidal course for not only the U.S. and the EU, but for > civilization as a whole, because this would likely end in a nuclear war > that will destroy all nations and peoples > <https://fas.org/2017/01/turning-a-blind-eye-towards-armageddon-u-s-leaders-reject-nuclear-winter-studies/>. > > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 11:31 PM Sukla Sen <[email protected]> wrote: > > "We're calling ourselves peace activists and calling on people to > sympathize with a ruthless war-making, nuclear-war threatening dictator?" > > That's perhaps the filthiest joke we've encountered in quite a while. > > In this context, let's refresh our memory with what Steven Starr had > posted just hours (yeah, only hours) after the launch of the massive and > brutal multi-pronged invasion (abruptly reversing earlier assertions that > the possibility of an invasion by Russia is only a motivated figment of > imagination by the ever-scheming Pentagon?). > > <<It took Russia approximately 4 hours to destroy the air force, air > defenses, and navy of Ukraine. Russia is establishing control of all of > eastern Ukraine except for Galicia (including Lvov). Whatever will exist > of Ukraine will no longer have access to the Black Sea and the land bridge > to Crimea has been restored. I expect the Russians will be rounding > up those they hold responsible for the 8-year "anti-terrorist operation' in > Donbass, to be held for trial. Ukraine will not get nuclear weapons and > NATO will not have bases there. Crimea will not be attacked, the threat to > return it by force to Ukraine control is gone. > > It remains to be seen if the US/NATO will take any military action. I hope > not. Putin gave a very grave warning about that in his speech copied below: > > "*I would now like to say something very important for those who may be > tempted to interfere in these developments from the outside. No matter who > tries to stand in our way or all the more so create threats for our country > and our people, they must know that Russia will respond immediately, > and the consequences will be such as you have never seen in your entire > history. No matter how the events unfold, we are ready. All the necessary > decisions in this regard have been taken. I hope that my words will be > heard.*">> > > Even this ugly nuclear threat was celebrated. > Now, with the completely unexpected reversal in the trajectory of the war, > there's a call for cessation of the heroic and, more than that, miraculous > resistance being put up by Ukraine - in the garb of "peace"! > The term has, probably, never been so much desecrated. > > Sukla > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2022, 02:25 Ray Barglow <[email protected]> wrote: > > Steven and all, > > When I post an alert that the listserv is "unmoderated and serves as a > channel for misinformation," that message does not have the aim of, as you > say below, "upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them." > I hope, rather, that those in charge of administrating the listserv will > take action to remedy this situation. And maybe they will -- I'm waiting > to see. > > I have given clear-cut examples of the posting of such misinformation, > where the cross-posting sender targets a number of on-line discussion > groups, and is not (as far as I can discern) personally or interactively > engaged with others in this A 2000 discussion group. Cross-posting > enables the widest possible distribution of misinformation that comes from > state-sponsored sources, and it damages the credibility and integrity of > the social media targets it successfully colonizes. If you disagree with > this assessment, I'd like to know how and why. > > You say in your message, "I don't know anything about Jacque Baud. What I > do know is that the government the US installed in Kiev was full of > neo-Nazis from the Svoboda and Right Sektor parties, who hated Russia and > Russians. That was the point -- the US wanted to make Ukraine a true > threat to Russia.... The 2014 maidan coup in Kiev was certainly backed by > the US." > > The problem with this reply is, first of all, that you've left behind here > the issue that led to our discussion in the first place – whether this > listserv is or is not a channel for misinformation. Over the past couple > of weeks I've cited and discussed postings that exemplify this > misinformation problem, e.g. the allegation that Jews were responsible for > the Holodomor in Ukraine. Do you agree that these postings convey > misinformation? Shifting the discussion to the subject of what happened in > Ukraine in 2014 is changing the subject, it seems to me. > > Still, your comments about Euromaidan 2014 deserve attention. (Co-author > of my comments below is Pamela Montanaro, a peace advocate here in > Berkeley.) Yes, U.S. foreign policy supported regime change in Ukraine. > But that change occurred as the culmination of the successful popular > Euromaidan movement – a movement that was not a creature of the U.S. but > gave expression to grass-roots, mass dissent in Ukraine. Do you believe > that this movement was somehow brought into existence by the U.S. State > Department or the CIA or the like? What this conjecture assumes – as > asserted over and over again by Putin and Russian state-sponsored media – > is that the Ukrainians themselves are just pawns of U.S. and European > powers, without exerting agency in their own right. Do you believe this? > > The history of Ukraine-Russia relations and, since the dissolution of the > Soviet bloc, the relation between Ukraine and “the West” is > multidimensional. Anyone can go back through complex historical events and > cite only those factors that support a political argument one wants to > make, but that won't bring us to a nuanced historical understanding. The > government in Ukraine following the Maidan Revolution was voted out of > power in 2019 and a Jew, Zelensky, became president. Clearly Ukraine is > far more of a democracy, answering to the wishes of the majority of its > citizens, than is Russia today, whose government poisons the opposition and > imprisons those who dissent. Can we blame Ukrainians for not wanting > that? For wanting instead to draw closer to the West, for all its faults? > > After 1990, many Eastern Europeans were eager for their respective > countries to embrace the alliance with the West that suddenly became > available to them - NATO and then the EU. They chose that path for an > obvious reason: their experience living under domination of the Soviet > state apparatus (they do remember Holodomor, not to mention more recent > Russian state policies) was sufficiently horrible that they felt they’d > rather take their chances in alliance with “the West.” Ukraine was/is no > exception. > > In analyzing the events in Ukraine in 2004 (the Orange Revolution) and > 2014 (Euromaidan Revolution), it is true that the US influenced the > outcome. But so did Putin and the Russian oligarchs – forces that were > determined to thwart the political values and aims of the majority of > Ukrainians. > > In the 2003-2004 campaign for the presidency, the Russians went so far as > to poison the popular opposition candidate Yushchenko, who managed to > survive and won the Presidency that year. (See the documentary *Orange > Revolution* <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzleiHyxq7M&t=446s> on > YouTube, a film made by the *International Center on Nonviolent Conflict* > <https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/orange-revolution-english/>. > > Ten years later, during the 2014 Maidan Uprising, although both Russian > and Western representatives were involved behind the scenes, supporting the > current President Yanukovich or pushing for his ouster, it was the > grassroots Ukrainian movement -- people camping out and rallying in the > street, battling police brutality approved by Yanukovich – that was the > most powerful influence in shaping the course of events. (See the "Winter > on Fire" documentary on Netflix.) > > And when the president selected after Yanukovich’s ouster, Poroshenko, > proved himself to be unworthy of the peoples’ trust, they voted him out in > the next election. Volodymyr Zelenskyy won the Presidency in 2019 by a > landslide - 73%. > > As for neonazis in Ukraine, they are a problem everywhere – as much or > more so in many European countries and the US than in Ukraine. The far > right Slovoda Party, in which 10-20% identify as neonazis, received only > about 2% of the vote in 2019, holds no seats in Parliament, and there are > no nazis or neonazis in Zelenskyy's Cabinet. In the Ukrainian military, > there is a significant rightist presence, but it does not control the > overall military campaign or deflect from its aim: resistance to the > Russian invasion. > > A *recent PEW Research Center poll* > <https://twitter.com/pewresearch/status/979030856550400000?lang=en> found > that of all the countries of both eastern and western Europe, Ukrainians > evidenced far less antisemitism. Only around 4% of the Ukrainian public > expressed antisemitic views. Russia polled 9 percentage points higher at > 14%. > > The accusation of Nazism in Ukraine as a justification for the invasion > and brutality is a Putin talking point - his pretext for war. As US > citizens, we should be all too familiar with the “pretext for war” > scenario, having been exposed to it so many times ourselves. > > We're calling ourselves peace activists and calling on people to > sympathize with a ruthless war-making, nuclear-war threatening dictator? > Good grief! Putin dreams of restoring Russia to its former "glory" -- > abetting that aim, some parts of the left and, alas, of the peace > movement too are not looking thoughtfully at the complexity of the various > political forces at play in Ukraine, and are placing themselves at > loggerheads with the struggle of the vast majority of the Ukrainian people, > who long to live in a country where they can count on their government to > allow them to meet their basic needs, to ensure basic human and civil > rights, and to end the corruption and abuse they’ve long been subject to at > the hands of powerful oligarchs. This is the theme, iterated over and over > again, of the TV series in which Zelenskyy stars, "Servant of the People" > (available on Netflix). > > Oligarchs in every country vie for control of the planet’s resources and > territories. There is nothing new about this behavior. But while they are > doing that, there exists down below, among the rest of us, the vast > majority of humankind, impassioned movements of people who are struggling > to create decent human societies, and they are often doing that at great > risk to themselves. > > The far-left recruiting of the peace movement to an "enemy of my enemy is > my friend" way of thinking, and the buying into the talking points and > twisted “history” propagated by a leader like Putin -- this is tragic and > horrifying. > > Raymond Barglow > > Pamela Montanaro > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Abolition Caucus" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/abolition-caucus/008e01d84de6%2484c06dd0%248e414970%24%40barglow.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/abolition-caucus/008e01d84de6%2484c06dd0%248e414970%24%40barglow.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Nuclear News List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nuclear-news-list/CACEsOZi4F-EPj%2B207SMYw7sHvG-VJgAOjyRRsx0rje5aqvLnvg%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nuclear-news-list/CACEsOZi4F-EPj%2B207SMYw7sHvG-VJgAOjyRRsx0rje5aqvLnvg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Abolition Caucus" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/abolition-caucus/CACEsOZgR_t-R-Lrw8Q1xd%2BXoJJFVZYwe4WfT%3DPKG21uW_Agdng%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/abolition-caucus/CACEsOZgR_t-R-Lrw8Q1xd%2BXoJJFVZYwe4WfT%3DPKG21uW_Agdng%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Abolition Caucus" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/abolition-caucus/CAJNwT_fK7HN9DodChwFqhjT8AQB-mx8-0%2Bvo_JByQCH1o40m%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/abolition-caucus/CAJNwT_fK7HN9DodChwFqhjT8AQB-mx8-0%2Bvo_JByQCH1o40m%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. 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