Looping in a couple of things Branden brought up that I felt compelled to 
address,
after catching up on the list.


On Feb 19, 2026, at 11:28 AM, G. Branden Robinson 
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I find this to be generally true (with honorable exceptions) of software
> documentation undertaken by people who regard the avoidance of tools
> (like *roff or TeX[1]) for structured document composition as a positive
> good. ...
> 
> [1] Or, as I understand it, the expensive, proprietary, and now dead
>    FrameMaker, which I never encountered in the flesh.

FrameMaker is still being sold, although it’s subscription-only. In the early 
naughts,
I dumped it and went to groff for work-related stuff for several years, after 
Adoobie
decided they didn’t care about MacOS anymore. If you want to call a move to
subscription-only “dead,” though, I won’t argue. :-D It’s better than MS Weird, 
but
writing Markdown in ed is better than MS Weird. I think Frame is part of AEM 
(Adoobie
Experience Manager) now.

People who are looking for structured document composition often turn to XML—
mostly DITA but DocBook is still kicking—these days. XML purists would say both
*roff and TeX aren’t structured, because you can use primitives to force 
behavior
that XML markup languages can’t support. There’s an echo of that in the -man vs.
-mdoc debates here. Technical writing has its trendy formats, much like coders
have their trendy languages (perl, Python, Ruby, etc).


On Feb 21, 2026, at 3:28 PM, G. Branden Robinson <[email protected]> 
wrote:

> The wide popularity of non-semantic markup languages like Markdown and
> reStructured Text hints at a darker possibility: a lot of implementors
> suck at documenting their systems with semantic tools because thinking
> carefully about the semantics of their systems freezes them up.

I did technical writing for over 40 years, and will continue to do so if I can 
find a job.
In that time, I’ve used everything from a roff clone on Idris to DITA-XML on a 
high-
end CCMS. Theoretically, yes, highly-structured and -semantic markup can be 
useful
(for example, picking out terms to generate a glossary), but how often are 
things like
that actually implemented?

There was a paper, “There are no unstructured documents,”[1] that discussed 
software
meant to recover structure from a PDF based on the presentation. I call it 
“implied
structure” or “shared context,” because people use visual cues agreed upon over 
centuries
to derive structure. If you depend on shared context, it’s not difficult to 
move Markdown
to DITA, and vice-versa.[2]

Nowadays, controversial or not, one can use AI to derive that structure. I fed 
an LLM a
four-page long table of alarm codes from an SCTE spec (PDF format) and had it 
give it back
as a CSV file. One quick awk script later (plus a few edits where the LLM had 
misplaced
quotes in the CSV), I had the framework for documenting those alarms.

It boils down to, how much structure is enough? Personally, I think HTML and 
-mm are
pretty close to the sweet spot. You can always use the class attribute in HTML 
to add more
semantics if needed, or modify -mm by adding or changing macros. Metadata can 
also
be important, and there are accepted ways of adding that metadata to Markdown 
(YAML
headers) or HTML (meta elements). The -mm macros support at least some broad 
metadata
(document type, author, etc) as well, and more could be added as needed.

— Larry


[1] 
https://web.archive.org/web/20061110082020/http://www.exegenix.com/media/pdf/exegenix_xmleurope2002_paper.pdf
 
<https://web.archive.org/web/20061110082020/http://www.exegenix.com/media/pdf/exegenix_xmleurope2002_paper.pdf>

[2] The DITA Open Toolkit (DITA-OT) <https://www.dita-ot.org 
<https://www.dita-ot.org/>/> supports Markdown, and HTML5 structured in a 
particular way, as peer formats. They call it “Lightweight DITA” (LwDITA). It 
supports conversions in both directions.

  • ... Damian McGuckin
    • ... G. Branden Robinson
      • ... Damian McGuckin
      • ... Larry Kollar via discussion of the GNU roff typesetting system and related software

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