Hi Ludo, On ven., 26 mai 2023 at 17:37, Ludovic Courtès <l...@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Well, I do not know if we have reached a conclusion. From my point of >> view, both can be included *if* their licenses are compatible with Free >> Software – included the weights (pre-trained model) as licensed data. > > We discussed it in 2019: > > https://issues.guix.gnu.org/36071 Your concern in this thread was: My point is about whether these trained neural network data are something that we could distribute per the FSDG. https://issues.guix.gnu.org/36071#3-lineno21 and we discussed this specific concern for the package leela-zero. Quoting 3 messages: Perhaps we could do the same, but I’d like to hear what others think. Back to this patch: I think it’s fine to accept it as long as the software necessary for training is included. The whole link is worth a click since there seems to be a ‘server component’ involved as well. https://issues.guix.gnu.org/36071#3-lineno31 https://issues.guix.gnu.org/36071#5-lineno52 https://issues.guix.gnu.org/36071#6-lineno18 And somehow I am rising the same concern for packages using weights. We could discuss case-by-case, instead I find important to sketch guidelines about the weights because it would help to decide what to do with neuronal networks; as “Leela Chess Zero” [1] or others (see below). 1: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/63088 > This LWN article on the debate that then took place in Debian is > insightful: > > https://lwn.net/Articles/760142/ As pointed in #36071 mentioned above, this LWN article is a digest of some Debian discussion, and it is also worth to give a look to the raw material (arguments): https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg00153.html > To me, there is no doubt that neural networks are a threat to user > autonomy: hard to train by yourself without very expensive hardware, > next to impossible without proprietary software, plus you need that huge > amount of data available to begin with. About the “others” from above, please note that GNU Backgamon, already packaged in Guix with the name ’gnubg’, asks similar questions. :-) Quoting the webpage [2]: Tournament match and money session cube handling and cubeful play. All governed by underlying cubeless money game based neural networks. As Russ Allbery is pointing [3] – similarly as I tried to do in this thread – it seems hard to distinguish the data resulting from a pre-processing as some training to the data just resulting from good fitted parameters. 2: https://www.gnu.org/software/gnubg/ 3: https://lwn.net/Articles/760199/ > As a project, we don’t have guidelines about this though. I don’t know > if we can come up with general guidelines or if we should, at least as a > start, look at things on a case-by-case basis. Somehow, if we do not have guidelines for helping in deciding, it makes harder the review of #63088 [1] asking the inclusion of lc0 or it makes hard to know what to do about GNU Backgamon. On these specific cases, what do we do? :-) Cheers, simon