Jeremy, how about a "walk before you run" approach? if you cannot afford the resources for an elaborate, long and detailed online course, then how about considering a series of wiki articles? perhaps they could point to web resources where people could for instance, learn object oriented programming for themselves? then the other articles could be written, each to further extend the teaching, as time permits and subjects suggest themselves? Hopefully this would not be too resource intensive for GW, and might satisfy the need which seems to be showing itself here. I'm not sure; but I think a lot of people just need "a hand up"; a little instruction to help them get going, so they can see where to head in order to learn more on their own. hth, Chip
_____ From: Jeremy Curry [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:55 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: Why scripting courses are not offered online I think the problem is that we are comparing apples and oranges in this situation. If we were to look at the schools that provide online universities - my first question would be how many of them cater to multiple groups of blind students at one time? I would be the answer is close to zero. I have people contact me all of the time because online schools have not made their web content accessible. I have a strong belief that GW Micro should be a role model for accessibility in everything we do; especially for accessibility for the blind. Designing a course for both the sighted, low vision, and totally blind can be very challenging because of examples used for scripting. For example, let's suppose I have an item that doesn't speak at all, but I need it to speak. How would that a course that had multiple examples of this be designed for the blind; especially if they were all online? This is not where the comparison ends. It is just one small part of the whole. I would also add that the courses that online universities are using have been developed over a long period of time from many different people. For example, an anthropology online course relies upon hundreds of years (or more) of work and text that others have put together over time while Window-Eyes scripting is relatively new. In my college career, I only remember one professor who used a textbook that was written by himself, which happened to be in economics. And, many of his examples had been modified from various professors of economics that came before him. As an example, he didn't come up with the graph to represent supply and demand on his own. From our end, even though VBScript has been around for some time (as well as other languages that support COM Automation), scripting for Window-Eyes has only been around for about two years or so, so we don't have the advantage of using ideas from hundreds of years of people who came before us as do professors that teach at many online universities. I suppose you could make the argument that there are people who teach computer languages that are at the same disadvantage, but I would almost guarantee that they are using someone else's textbook that, yet again, relies on multiple authorities regarding the subject matter. In regards to Window-Eyes, there is a total knowledgebase of the people here at GW Micro, and the past two years that have been spent in development, which would make it difficult to develop a lengthy textbook. It could be done, but if we spent all of our time doing that, we would never get another version of Window-Eyes out the door. <smile> Another factor is cost. How many people can get an entire degree (or even one course) for less than $1,000? Many times, these courses cost thousands and thousands of dollars. If people aren't willing to pay $895, are they really willing to pay more? The issue seems to be over price, so I don't think having a longer course is going to increase the amount of people who will take it considering it would cost us even more time to put it together. Yet another consideration is computer setup. If we have multiple people sitting at home in one group session, how many of them have the exact same system setup? This can cause many different variables while scripting. This is something else that online universities do not have to deal with. We were recently writing a script, and it was not functioning correctly due to a simple color scheme issue, which we had some difficulty pinpointing at first. Again, imagine 7 people with 7 different setups or even different version of Office, operating systems, and other applications. We are able to fix this issue in our training classes because we now bring netbooks connected to the same USB keyboard with the exact same image on them. I think Vic has a good point about having assignments, etc. However, as Doug Lee points out, people who typically take college courses are capable of reading the material on their own and learning it. And for the people who cannot do that, they still go to class. If you will remember, I even did a webinar when we first came out with scripting to go over the very basics of how to use it. Out of the hundreds of people I have trained since then in our training classes, I have found zero of them who listened to the scripting webinar. Or, if you look at the Window-Eyes free tutorial, there are some who really enjoy it, but others simply would rather go to an in-depth training course to immerse themselves because they learn best in that manner. They are typically busy professionals or students who like to have an intense course in which they can ask questions, get immediate answers, and immediate hands-on assistance. Doug Lee also points out resources and this is definitely an issue. We all wear many hats here, and it is very difficult to commit 100% of our time to just one item. If we had the resources and people were willing to pay the higher cost that it would bear to have a very extensive, very long, online course, then we could certainly look at adding this. However, we have many years of experience providing these hands-on training classes, and we know they work. So, rather than put time and effort into something that may or may not work (and in regards to scripting, online free training didn't produce much as noted before), we would rather put our time and effort into a method that already has a proven track record. With all of that said, I'm never closed to trying something new. If we get a large demand for people wanting an online course and they are willing to pay a much higher cost for it because of the time we put into it, then I'm sure we would consider it. However, I think most people hear "free" or "inexpensive" when they hear something is online, and that would not be the case because of the amount of time and effort we would need to put into it. Sorry for the long post, but I hope that helps to provide some more insight into the issue. Jeremy From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 12:33 PM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: Why scripting courses are not offered online Well Jeremy is correct. That is if the on line course is run in the same manner as a classroom session. However when running a course on line the model does change. may be GW Micro can look at those institutions that have been successfully running on line courses as outlined in Donald's message? A couple of my in-laws have successfully obtained their masters degrees through on line courses. They had assignments, these assignments were evaluated, they had reading to do, and they sat in on lectures. They even had one on one sessions with their professors to go over any questions they may have. So this can work. Vic _____ From: donald E. Bowen, Jr. [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 11:25 AM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Why scripting courses are not offered online Thanks for taking the time to reply. Problem is, your reply does not hold water. That is, it does not seem valid as too many highly complex courses are given by online universities all around the globe. Again, thanks for responding though. Donald .db _____ From: Jeremy Curry [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:29 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Beginner/Intermediate Window-Eyes Script Writing Class in Denver, CO Hi Donald, I get this question rather often, so I wanted to take this opportunity to respond: This is a group hands-on training. Based on the enormous amount of material that is covered and the intensity of the class, as well as experience with other online classes, it would be a near-impossibility to teach this class online. There are many times in class that we have to do a lot of hand-holding, and double-check the work of students in the class. Imagine having just 7 people in an online class, and while typing in code, 4 of them get the code incorrect. You then have to stop everything you are doing and fix each student one at a time by listening to everything they have typed in. This could take 30 minutes to solve all 4 problems in some cases, and by that time, I am certain you have lost the other 3 students to something else. But, you wouldn't know where they were because you are not in the same room. These are problems that are much easier to overcome in a real-world setting. This would be extremely difficult to do in an online environment. If someone were to do one-on-one training online, it might be possible, but still difficult. However, to teach an entire group online is an entirely different story. Since so many people want to learn the basics of scripting, we are making a strong effort to provide these classes in various parts of the country, and they are extremely well received. Jeremy From: donald E. Bowen, Jr. [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:56 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Beginner/Intermediate Window-Eyes Script Writing Class in Denver, CO Why not just offer these online? .db _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Beginner/Intermediate Window-Eyes Script Writing Class in Denver, CO Greetings, The following event has been posted to the GW Micro Upcoming Events <http://www.gwmicro.com/events> page: Name: Beginner/Intermediate Window-Eyes Script Writing Class in Denver, CO When: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 to Friday, June 24, 2011 Where: Denver, CO What: Window-Eyes Beginner Script Writing Class Who: Marc Solomon Comments: Click <https://www.gwmicro.com/Training/Script_Training/Registration/?cid=CO-BEGIN NER-SCRIPTING0611> here to register for the Window-Eyes Beginner/Intermediate Script Writing class in Denver, Colorado! GW Micro and Beyond Sight are excited to offer our Window-Eyes script writing class for intermediate and beginner users in Colorado! This class is for people who have little or no script-writing experience. You will, however, need to have a good working knowledge of Window-Eyes. It is highly recommended that you have taken the Window-Eyes training class within the past 12 months. The Beginner/Intermediate script writing class offers the ability for anyone interested in scripting to be able to come and learn how to use scripts, configure scripts, and create scripts with no prior knowledge of scripting required. A large focus is placed on the basics of scripting, and how to get started creating your own scripts, as well as how to use scripts to make applications more accessible. If you have used scripting languages from competing screen readers in the past, this is the perfect opportunity for you to get up to speed with Window-Eyes scripting! Due to the large amount of material this class covers, the training will be a 3-day class. The class will be held on June 22, 23, and 24 at Beyond Sight, which is located at: 5650 S. Windemere Street Littleton, CO 80120 For directions to the training location, please call Beyond Sight at (303) 795-6455. Space is limited, so sign up soon! The cost for this class is $895. We anticipate a very high demand for this class, so be sure to register soon by going to www.gwmicro.com/training. Make sure to select Denver, CO as the training location. If you have questions regarding the class, please call Jeremy Curry at (260) 489-3671. Or, email Jeremy at [email protected]. __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5813 (20110124) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5813 (20110124) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5817 (20110125) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5817 (20110125) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com
