I had no idea there were so many! Went to my first Ithra (SCA school) this weekend, and was overjoyed to meet some like minded people (costuming, horses and cooking!) First of all, begging pardon for mentioning certain items and not posting links, it becomes really awkward without opening a half dozen other windows at the same time, and I usually end up closing the wrong ones and losing my message. I will do a search to see if I can find pictures of some of the references I mention in response. It has been a busy week, but finally able to get back to the costume list. Am I the only one that did not recieve issue 230? Attended a class on equestrian barding this weekend, and one of the things that came up in discussion was the aside vs. astride issue. >Message: 2 >Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 13:09:35 -0600 >From: "Diane Maynard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: RE: [h-cost] Equestrian costumers and other hobbies - sort of >OT > >-----Original Message----- >Annette and others- > >Can we make a subgroup that deals with riding outfits and horse items? > >Personally, I am right there with you on the costuming for riders and >horses. I own a horse farm that does classical riding (Dressage, >Combined Training, Jumpers) but, I do SCA and other historical costuming as >well. I compete on horseback in the SCA with my full Elizabethan gowns... <snip> > I already have a gorgeous saddle---just need a beautiful >period bridle for my big grey warmblood. > >Diane Oohh, see! - although I do my dressage and 3-day with a big Thoroughbred. > >>On Mar 6, 2006, at 11:41 AM, Kahlara wrote: > > Over the years I have found that most of my creative associations seem > to have at least two or three similarities in other areas as well as > the shared interest in which we first became aquainted. > > I have noticed several list members make reference to horses and > riding. I ride and own horses also.Much snippage> > Just a little generalizing. ;-) > >Message: 5 >Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 22:42:03 +0000 (GMT) >From: julian wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Equestrian costuming & other period "tack" > > Annette, Susan, and others - > according to Master Rhys Terafan Greydragon, - he estimates that of >the entire SCA membership, possibly only 10% can actually ride, - and >fewer still own their own horses.
<snip> > There must be so much specialised "Equestrian Lore" of costume, of >bardings, of other tacks - of which we are unaware, - it would seem >likely to be a subject of considerable interest to those of us who don't >"ride" horses in these Modern Middle Ages. For example....... > The "riding side-saddle, riding astride"-debate has it's own >fascinations - Chaucer's illustrators clearly show the female Pilgrims riding >astride - but I have read comments confusing the issue, by moderns, >flatly stating that even during the 15th Century, all women rode >fully-side-saddle, or sat behind a Male servant. Evidence supports that the side-saddle in any form at all - didn't even exist until the 15th century. And the "modern" side saddle was developed possibly as recently as the 18th century. >Did this call for divided >skirts? or did women wear hosen under their skirts so as to be able to ride >astride yet keep their modesty? <snip> Just speculation, but my thinking that women wore hosen and tucked their skirts in a proprietary manner when riding. The specific image I am thinking of - someone posted the link (of the Wife of Bath riding astride?), clearly looks as if this is the case. >> Julian, in Old Jersey > >Message: 8 >Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 18:27:46 -0500 >From: Susan Data-Samtak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Equestrian costuming & other period "tack" > >From what I've been able to find out: he short version of Astride vs Aside: <snip> > I know there are pictures of >females riding astride as well as sideways with their back parallel to >the right side of the horse and their feet at right angles to the >horse's left side. (Did I make this perfectly unclear?) Like sitting in >a chair. Others rode sideways behind a man. Some even had a board to >place their feet on. Often the horse was led by a footman, controlling >the horse. It was thought that ladies couldn't control a large beast >like a horse. > >Women also rode "palfreys"- gaited horses, also called "ambling" >horses. Supposedly, the Paso Fino Breed, (my horse is a PF) has the >palfrey in its background. <snip> I just attended a class this past weekend on questrian barding and trappings, and the instructor had information that documented ambling as the equivalent of our modern day pacing - with the horses being taught to pace in the same manner. It wasn't included in part of the hand out, so I don't have the reference information to pass on. > >Susan > >Message: 10 >Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 19:47:04 -0600 >From: "Land of Oz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Equestrian costuming & other period "tack" > >LADIES, on the other hand, adhered to strict rules of conduct and kept >their legs together for propriety------------------------- > >I've never seen anything depicting this style of riding. Links ? I can see >where a footman would have to lead a person seated like this, as it >would be a little like driving a car from the backseat. This position would >put >the woman more in the class of cargo, rather than "riding". It would be a >form of transportation similar to sitting in a wagon, I'm sure. There is a 17th century French "side-saddle" of this type in the Herme's collection in Paris (yes, the same as the handbag people) that can be placed on the horse either way for the rider to face either the left or right side of the horse. This sort of saddle would necessitate the horse being led by a groom or some such person. > >Which is not the same at all as riding side-saddle. I can't speak to >specific time periods but I know I have read descriptions of women >wearing breeches or jodhpurs under a "false" skirt that looked and functioned >like a skirt when walking, but had a buttoned panel associated with function >under saddle. I would think that this would be a later period attire. The term jodphur originates in India and was brought back to Europe by the British - as I understand it. <snip> > >I would join an equestrian clothing group! >Denise > >Message: 12 >Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 21:28:18 -0600 >From: "Diane Maynard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [h-cost] Equestrian costuming and other period tack <snip> >periods before this time frame did not have the "modesty" that we refer >to and women (and Ladies) that rode and controlled their own horse would >ride astride. Women that were traveling but, did not "Ride" would travel by >Pillion saddle. A Pillion is a pad or cushion that attaches behind the saddle as a seat for a passenger, especially a woman. <snip> > By the 16 th century, Catherine de Medici >began to ride "Side-Saddle" for hunting. She actually took her husband's >hunting saddle and threw her leg over the front horn. <snip> There is >what is considered one of Elizabeth I 's side saddles in one of the London >museums. Although considered quite an accomplished rider and well verse in >hunting, when doing a parade or any public display, Queen Elizabeth I was >normally being led to insure nothing could happen to endanger her. There are >also accounts of Queen Elizabeth I wearing her Farthingale and that they >were so large as to dwarf the mount she was riding. There are numerous >portraits of Ladies and Queens riding astride through the 17 th century. It >is not >until the Victorian time frame that it becomes extremely improper for a Lady >to ride astride. <snip> >In case no one can tell----I find the history of the side saddle >fascinating and I also ride side-saddle. > >Diane > >Message: 11 >Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 19:15:38 -0600 >From: Melanie Schuessler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Equestrian costuming and other period tack > >Here are a couple from the 17th century, courtesy of Web Gallery of Art: > >VELÁZQUEZ, Diego Rodriguez de Silva y >Queen Isabel of Bourbon Equestrian >1634-35 >Oil on canvas, 301 x 314 cm >Museo del Prado, Madrid >http://www.wga.hu/art/v/velazque/05/0506vela.jpg > >VELÁZQUEZ, Diego Rodriguez de Silva y >Queen Margarita on Horseback >1634-35 >Oil on canvas, 297 x 309 cm >Museo del Prado, Madrid >http://www.wga.hu/art/v/velazque/05/0503vela.jpg > >It's really hard for me to tell whether they're riding astride or sidesaddle, >but perhaps >someone with more equestrian experience could venture. I would be interested in seeing these larger, or in person. In the first painting it is a little more difficult to tell, but in the second, it looks as if the material of the "saddle cloth" appears above and behind the woman's skirt on the horse's rear end, and possibly in both. The draping of the dress fabric over the front of the saddle also suggests the possibility of a leg hooked around a saddle horn underneath. > >Melanie Schuessler >http://www.faucet.net/costume > > >------------------------------ >Message: 9 >Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:48:06 +1100 >From: "Elizabeth Walpole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Equestrian costuming & other period "tack" > >While we're on the topic of Equestrian Costume I came across this fashion >plate >http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/women/fashionplates/1859septharpers.jpg > >from 1859. I was under the impression that women didn't wear hoops or >skirt supports (of whatever style was fashionable at the time) when they were >riding (as hoops would stand out from the horse's side giving those >below a view straight up your skirt and bustles or paniers would get in the >way >of you sitting on the horse), but it seems difficult to believe there >isn't a crinoline under that skirt. <snip> This is a fashion plate drawing, and if anything like today's fashion plate drawings shows off the garment to make it look as good as possible. In other words - not necessarily like it would look in real life. I would assume that as it was fashionable for the time however, some sort of crinoline structure would have been worn with a riding habit. As with the paintings mentioned above, artistic license can alter what we know as realistic to create a more dramatic and appealing appearance. >I'm pretty sure Victorian riding >habits were only worn when you planned to be actually riding, so no >chance of having one for show and one for actually getting on a horse. >I'm stumped, if anybody else can offer insights I'm really curious to know. >Elizabeth >-------------------------------------------- >Elizabeth Walpole >Canberra Australia >ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au >http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/ > >------------------------------ > >Message: 11 >Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:55:06 -0600 >From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Equestrian costuming & other period "tack" > >Hi Susan, > >I've seen an extant 16th c. English sidesaddle (Shakespeare's >Birthplace Museum) so I know they existed before 1800, and it is one >of the oddest looking things I've seen. <snip> >It was basically perfectly flat, oval shape on top with the pommel sticking up like a >monolith at the center front. There wasn't much else too it, beside >a rather normal looking saddle understructure - it was like instead >of having a normal saddle seat they filled that area in and stuck a >plate on top of it. It looked incredibly uncomfortable to sit on, >and I would imagine it would cut of the circulation to your legs in >no time at all. From what I have gleaned so far, the earliest predecessor of the modern sidesaddle had a double set of horns that stuck out of the top to the saddle and the rider wedged her leg between them. Over time the horns gradually moved to one side and into their present day configuration. > >IIRC, there is a drawing of a woman using a contraption to sit >sideways on a horse in Ruth Matilda Anderson's "Hispanic Costume: >1480 - 1530" as well. > >I found it interesting that Queen Elizabeth's saddle at Warwick >Castle is a normal "astride" saddle, if rather ornamented. > >Cheers, >Danielle > > >Message: 13 >Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:31:29 -0500 >From: Susan Data-Samtak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [h-cost] equestrian site- aside or astride? > >Here is much info to digest. Comments? > >http://ilaria.veltri.tripod.com/sidesaddle.html Wow, lots of information that I have barely had time to just skim. Thanks for sharing the link. > >Susan > > >Message: 8 >Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:31:23 -0700 >From: WickedFrau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [h-cost] EQ-[Fwd: Re: Historic Horse Yahoo group]-OT this >list for other than Historic Horse Costuming discussions > >Hi all, for those of you who expressed an interest in an "Other Than >Costuming" discussion place for historical equine discussions, here is >an option. I figured I would try it out. I still intend to post my >costume discussions to the h-costume list, but when the topic starts to >diverge to more horsey things...we can go here. <snip> >> >Message: 14 >Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 00:17:26 -0700 >From: WickedFrau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [h-cost] EQ-[Fwd: Re: Historic Horse Yahoo group]-OT this >list for other than Historic Horse Costuming discussions > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Historic_Horse/ > >Go to the above link. You should be able to see a "Join this Group" >button. You will be taken to a page to fill out which will tell the >moderator of the group why you are interested. You can reference this >note.... > >If you are new to Yahoo groups, the help screens are actually pretty >good: >http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/ > >If you have further questions about it, feel free to contact me off - list. > >Sg Fun discussion! And I am looking forward to discussing non-costume related historic equestrian topics. Annette M __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list [email protected] http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
