On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Ron Artstein wrote:

> Regarding Hebrew, a lot of the gender-specific language in
> instructions and such comes from the obligatory marking of gender
> in the imperative and second-person pronouns. Fortunately, these
> can usually be put in the plural, where Hebrew has practically lost
> its gender distinction, with the [na]/[en] forms dying out and the
> [u]/[em] forms being used for both genders. So go for it; what's
> there to lose?

  I agree that the gender-neutral form is best for 2nd person, but there are
cases when a gender-neutral form becomes too hard to read. For example how
should I write "advanced user" in gender-neutral Hebrew? Mishtamesh(t)
Mitkadem(t). This looks very awkward. I prefer arbitrarily chosing a gender,
and adding a comment. Instead of flipping a coin, however, I select the
gender that will apply to most of the people filling in the form.

> > In the case of Haifux, where the overwhelming majority of the
> > populace are, maybe regretably, male, the logical decision is
> > to use the masculine form.
>
> Here I strongly disagree. The Haifux majority is what I would
> consider an *accidental* majority---there's no principled reason
> for it (unlike, say, in a men's basketball team). Aiming your
> language at such an accidental majority just serves to enhance the
> gender bias.

  So should I use the feminine form and make the male majority read funny
looking text? If you can suggest a gender-neutral version of the form, I'd
gladly replace it.

> > The W2L series is not abotu changing the gender composition of
> > Haifux. Maybe women will respond better, but also the other way
> > around, and as the vast majority of the target populace is
> > (regretably) male, this will have a negative impact on the
> > total number of participants.
>
> What?! We're talking about making the site gender-neutral, not
> gender-specific. I don't see men getting upset at this. I don't see
> them even noticing this.
>
> Those of you (men) who cook and do laundry, doesn't it annoy you to
> find on packages instructions like `tagni beshemen amok' or `hosifi
> pkak ekhad le-liter mayim'? Well, it annoys me, and I'd rather see
> `tagnu ...' or `yesh lehosif ...'. I don't see a reason why
> instructions for formatting a disk should be any less neutral.

See my comments above.

  Alon

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