How right you are! But with your help this should be EZ. Wolfgang Giere
"Nancy E. Anthracite" wrote: > It seems I have heard some discussion about object oriented mumps. Is that > along the lines of what you are thinking? > > On Thursday 25 November 2004 09:29 am, Terry Wiechmann wrote: > > If the community is going to revive the standardization process, it better > > have a 'vision' beyond the Millennium Standard. The fact is MUMPS is > > perceived as an old procedural language. It's viewed as dead by the > > 'outside' world. If you want to get new blood involved, the goals for the > > language will have to show an evolution towards what the rest of the world > > wants, not what makes the existing MUMPS community comfortable. Its future > > must be viewed as in step with existing technologies. Without climbing into > > the pulpit, I think everyone knows the direction it must take :-) > > > > Terry L. Wiechmann > > www.esitechnology.com > > 978-779-0257 > > Skype: twiechmann > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joseph Dal Molin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:01 AM > > Subject: Re: MDC/MUG Revival - Just do it (was) Re: [Hardhats-members] > > Nov17th interview [added] Dr. K, MUG, MDC, Goodbye Mumps > > > > > I have just returned from Brasil where I gave a worskshop on open source > > > in health informatics. I was invited by the Brasilian Health Informatics > > > Society and as a result have made some good friends and excellent > > > contacts. I will contact both the current and past president of the > > > Society as well as colleagues in Sao Paolo to inform them of this > > > discussion. > > > > > > What this will need is a small team of midwives and lots of publicity > > > and support. With a team in place I will table a motion at our next > > > WorldVistA board meeting to support to this effort. I should think that > > > the VSA would want to do the same as well as the Pacific Telehealth Hui. > > > We can then use press releases etc. to get the word out.... we have good > > > access to reporters several trade journals etc. We can also use other > > > medical informatics forums such as the openhealth list....and submit to > > > Slashdot. Also all the medical informatics schools should also be > > > > contacted. > > > > > Unfortunately all I can offer is to help launch this group, I have no > > > expertise in M at all....but I do have a great deal of experience > > > building communities of this kind in health informatics. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Joseph > > > > > > Prof. em. Dr. med. Wolfgang Giere wrote: > > > > I fully agree with Arden Forrey's remarks. It was a shame that the > > > > "Millenium > > > > > > Standard" did not happen. It took us a long march through the > > > > institutions to make > > > > > > Mumps an ISO-Standard. > > > > > > > > To revive MDC as official body can be done either using the old > > > > ANSI-affiliation or > > > > > > through a ISO WG (that would be the "normal" way). Both ways reuire > > > > international > > > > > > participation. I suppose, MUG Germany would be willing to participate > > > > (I > > > > cannot ask > > > > > > my successor Wolfgang Kirsten, he is hospitalized right now). Also I > > > > guess, Frans > > > > > > Witte (Netherlands) could be reactivated. Ion Diamond in GB? I do not > > > > know whether > > > > > > he is still active in the field. But there is a new commercial Mumps > > > > available in > > > > > > GB. Finland? I do not know the actual state of M-use there. What about > > > > South > > > > > > America? Could George Timson trigger participation? I once visited > > > > M-using > > > > > > hospitals in Sao Paulo and might be able to find out. We should get NEW > > > > people. > > > > > > I did not follow the ISO-story. Is the standard sustained? I have been > > > > asked in > > > > > > Germany and suggested to vote yes, but I did never ask for the results. > > > > Does > > > > > > anybody know? > > > > > > > > Wolfgang Giere > > > > > > > > "A. Forrey" wrote: > > > >>I definitely support Joseph's statement, as Rick and other hard hats > > > >>already know. I felt dissolution of both the MTA and the MDC were wrong > > > >>following the 1999 meeting and the fact that the "Millenium Standard" > > > > was > > > > > >>ready for ballot at that last meeting but never happened was a setback. > > > > It > > > > > >>can be reversed. A host organization for the MDC and an organizational > > > >>framework for an ANSI-accredited SDO must be written. The NE MUG > > > >> remains > > > > a > > > > > >>viable organization and encompass all the market, not just healthcare > > > >> or VistA and this will be important. WV must actively promote getting > > > >> this done. Bashkar can offer inputs regarding other market segments > > > >> and an initial listing of Suppliers of of M-based products and > > > >> services must be compiled quickly to aid in this effort. The HH > > > >> website can be a > > > > mechanmism > > > > > >>of dissemination. Another question of great importance has to do with > > > >>building the education infrastructure to which Dick Walters insights > > > > will > > > > > >>be important. We must stimulate the creation of programs which feature > > > >> M and how it is integrated into the Life Cycle Principles for system > > > > design > > > > > >>and implementation as well as how to utilize its unique features to > > > >>advantage. This subject was pushed at the Sept 1998 MDC meeting in > > > > Seattle > > > > > >>but had not taken off by the 1999 San Diego meeting; the resurrecred > > > >> MDC must be structured to address this education issue in this broad > > > >> context as it will drive a stake in the heart of the "MUMPS is OLD" > > > >> saw being > > > > used > > > > > >>to rid the market of a powerful component. We must draw on the M vendor > > > >>list to be created. We here at UW will contribute to rebuilding the M > > > >>Education capabilities. > > > >> > > > >>On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Joseph Dal Molin wrote: > > > >>>It is definitely time to do it....it is not constructive to see this > > > > kind of > > > > > >>>press as the VA "hates" MUMPS.... rather it should be seen as "we need > > > > help" > > > > > >>>to a) address the deficiencies b) we do not be dependent on a single > > > > vendor > > > > > >>>c) we need company. Ironically, a new MDC that leverages an open > > > >>> source "business" model, can I believe, without any doubt do what the > > > >>> Red Sox > > > > just > > > > > >>>did. More importantly the rest of the planet will need an MDC etc. > > > > because > > > > > >>>the will need the same things the VA needs whether or not the VA > > > >>> sticks > > > > with > > > > > >>>MUMPS..... > > > >>> > > > >>>I am not a MUMPSTer...so I say this from a practical strategic > > > >>>perspective..... it is indeed a time for revival...a pragmatic > > > > one...that > > > > > >>>focuses on improving and leveraging what is good about M and > > > >>> dispelling > > > > the > > > > > >>>mythology and misinformation that has bred in the absence of an > > > > MDC/MUG. With > > > > > >>>so many vendors still using M, eg. Epic, Meditech, Cerner, McKesson > > > > surely > > > > > >>>there is both commercial and user interest. Epic for example, has > > > > become one > > > > > >>>of the best systems in the industry....in part it's its > > > > management...but one > > > > > >>>cannot ignore its underlying architecture. BTW is there anywhere a > > > > commercial > > > > > >>>system that uses the full architecture proposed for 5 years from now?? > > > >>> > > > >>>joseph > > > >>> > > > >>>Nancy E. Anthracite wrote: > > > >>>>This is the article I posted days ago that many of you could not read > > > > and > > > > > >>>>that I said I would try to get for you, so here it is and this was > > > >>>> the original URL. The original thread was Joseph Conn's interview > > > >>>> with > > > > Dr. > > > > > >>>>Kolodner. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> http://www.modernphysician.com/news.cms?newsId=2817 > > > >>>> > > > >>>>Notice how the lack of a Mumps Users Group and as a corollary, I'm > > > > sure, > > > > > >>>>the MDC, is the backbone of his argument that VistA needs to be moved > > > > to a > > > > > >>>>SQL database. The MDC desperately needs to be revived. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>I found this URL interesting last night. This is a company I was not > > > > aware > > > > > >>>>of. If their product is good, it would seem to satisfy the VA's > > > > burning > > > > > >>>>desire to extract and analyze their data in an SQL database as they > > > >>>> do > > > > not > > > > > >>>>seem to want to do that straight out of a Mumps database, probably > > > > because > > > > > >>>>so many people are trained in making SQL queries but not in how to > > > > extract > > > > > >>>>data from VistA. I actually thought that Cache had this capability > > > >>>> in > > > > it > > > > > >>>>already, but I may be mistaken. > > > >>>>I suspect that this company owes its viability to already being used > > > > by the > > > > > >>>>VA, but I don't know about that. In fact, maybe some of the folks in > > > > the > > > > > >>>>company are on this mailing list or come to WV meetings, I don't > > > >>>> know. > > > > One > > > > > >>>>would think they are as disappointed as we are that the database is > > > > being > > > > > >>>>moved by the VA. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>http://mde.srs-inc.com/aboutmde.html > > > >>>>It is interesting that he mentioned that it will be inexpensive to > > > > move the > > > > > >>>>data from one SQL database to another, but the cost of the move from > > > > mumps > > > > > >>>>to the SQL database will certainly not be. > > > >>>>I wonder what the cost of performing the needed maintenance to a the > > > > mumps > > > > > >>>>database would be as compared to the cost of this move. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>On Wednesday 24 November 2004 01:08 am, Joseph Dal Molin wrote: > > > >>>>>Could you please provide the URL for this so it is adequately > > > >>>>>referenced....thanks!!! > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>Joseph > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > >>>>>>Here it is Nancy. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>Tom Henderson > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>FOIA version of Vista remains available despite recent changes > > > >>>>>>/*By Joseph Conn <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> / *November 17, 2004/ > > > >>>>>>// > > > >>>>>>Despite plans to overhaul its Vista clinical system, the Veterans > > > >>>>>>Health Administration will continue to offer copies of its > > > >>>>>>multimillion-dollar software to private-sector users for a nominal > > > > fee > > > > > >>>>>>under the Freedom of Information Act, according to the Department > > > >>>>>> of Veterans Affairs' top physician informaticist. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>"We have the full support of the VHA leadership to continue to keep > > > > this > > > > > >>>>>>in the public domain," said Robert Kolodner, M.D., acting chief > > > > health > > > > > >>>>>>informatics officer at the VHA and deputy chief information officer > > > > for > > > > > >>>>>>health at the VA. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>On Nov. 8, the VA published a request for vendors to submit > > > > statements > > > > > >>>>>>of their capability to provide the VA with what it called > > > >>>>>> "rehosting support." It also called for vendors to provide routine > > > >>>>>> service and support for the VA's Vista healthcare information > > > >>>>>> technology system. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>Kolodner said the move also would have no immediate impact on an > > > > effort > > > > > >>>>>>initiated by the VA and the CMS to develop a version of Vista for > > > > the > > > > > >>>>>>physician office practice. That software should be ready by summer > > > > 2005, > > > > > >>>>>>according to the CMS. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>One goal of the proposed five-year contract is to move the VA's > > > >>>>>>healthcare IT system from the programming language and database on > > > > which > > > > > >>>>>>it was first written in the late 1970s and where it remains today: > > > > from > > > > > >>>>>>MUMPS, or the Massachusetts General Hospital Utility > > > > Multi-Programming > > > > > >>>>>>System (now known as M), to, as much as possible, open-source > > > > versions > > > > > >>>>>>of the Java programming language and possibly at least two > > > > relational > > > > > >>>>>>database systems, Kolodner said. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>Kolodner said the VA initially plans to run a national database on > > > >>>>>>software from Oracle Corp. and regional databases on the relational > > > >>>>>>database portion of Cache, a program by InterSystems Corp., which > > > >>>>>>incorporates a proprietary version of M now used by the VA. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>"But it could be on (Microsoft's) Sequel Server or SQL or any other > > > >>>>>>database," Kolodner said, adding the VA would incur a "relatively > > > > small > > > > > >>>>>>cost" to convert Vista from one database to another if need be. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>"We've had a history of staying vendor-independent," he said. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>Within the VA, M has developed almost a religious following among > > > >>>>>>programmers for its speed, dependability, flexibility and > > > > scalability, > > > > > >>>>>>and several of today's leading commercial healthcare IT systems > > > >>>>>> have > > > > M > > > > > >>>>>>at their core. But Kolodner said it is time to switch. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>"MUMPS has served us very well over the last 20 years," he said. > > > >>>>>> "We have done a lot with it, and it has supported our needs." > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>However, many M vendors have been bought by InterSystems and a > > > >>>>>>once-thriving MUMPS user group has gone defunct. Today, there are > > > > fewer > > > > > >>>>>>programmers skilled in M than in a more modern language, such as > > > > Java. > > > > > >>>>>>"There are times when it is much too expensive and takes much too > > > > long > > > > > >>>>>>to make changes and support the needs that we have," he said. "Java > > > > is > > > > > >>>>>>taught in more schools than MUMPS is." > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>In addition, Java and relational databases are better suited > > > > together, > > > > > >>>>>>he said. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>>>>SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > > >>>>>Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > > > > users. > > > > > >>>>>Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading > > > >>>>> now. http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/ > > > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > > > >>>>>Hardhats-members mailing list > > > >>>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > >>> > > > >>>------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>>SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > > >>>Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > > > > users. > > > > > >>>Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > > > >>>http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/ > > > >>>_______________________________________________ > > > >>>Hardhats-members mailing list > > > >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > >> > > > >>------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > > >>Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > > > >> users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start > > > >> reading now. http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/ > > > >>_______________________________________________ > > > >>Hardhats-members mailing list > > > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real > > > > users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading > > > > now. http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > > > http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > > http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > -- > Nancy Anthracite > > ------------------------------------------------------- > SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide > Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. > Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. > http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Hardhats-members mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members ------------------------------------------------------- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. 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