I don't think the re-hosting on Cache is the issue of concern as I understand it. It is the attempt to move VistA from Cache M based on to an Oracle like database, whether or not it is within Cache, and rewriting all the code in Java that are the questionable things that I have heard about. The database move will almost certainly cost in speed and the thought of moving to another language and a different architecture of this database tier without first re-engineering/cleaning up/modularizing/ etc. what is there and then carefully considering the options seems to me to be fraught with a tremendous risk of failure.
On Wednesday 13 April 2005 10:38 pm, GARY MONGER wrote: > I think easy is a relative thing. For folks with a background or education > based on procedural languages, a transition to another procedural language > may be much easier than a transition to an OO language. And a transition > to a procedural language for the modern child of OO may be much tougher > than a move to another OO language. Then there's Lisp and Prolog, each > really in its own category. Its more than the language, it's the > abstraction the language represents. Lisp is functional and recursive, and > you must approach problems accordingly to be proficient. With MUMPS you > have strong string manipulation and pattern matching, tremendous > overloading of functions and operators, and a different concept of truth. > Perl is the only thing I've seen come close. With MUMPS its also the > globals, nothing really like that out there in the mainstream. You solve > problems a different way when you have sparse arrays. With VistA, its > Fileman. VistA data structure is a big step away from your typical MUMPS > system, and it takes a while for even a strong M developer to come up to > speed. > > Learning a language is one thing, being proficient in a new abstraction is > another and takes time. I'd say a couple years for most people. I think I > picked up Java pretty quickly, but I certainly could use a couple years > experience before I'd consider myself solid. > > > Anyway, I'm not so sure the new architecture for HEV VistA is such a huge > miss. Certainly there are many advantages to M/Cache and to leveraging the > M expertise VHA employs. One of the most important being that its how I > pay the bills. But I don't need to enumerate the pros of M on this list. > > I will say that I think the success of DHCP/VistA has more to do with the > framework that supports it than anything else. Fileman and Kernel allow so > many possibilities. Many great applications are developed locally, or by > outside vendors, or IHS, and seamlessly integrate with the national system. > I think the Service Oriented Architecture of HEV may provide a similar > framework once core services are in place. Anyone can build a service, and > it can live on any platform, including Cache. The consumer of the service > doesn't know and doesn't care. It seems to me this will allow the kind of > development that has made VistA what it is today. It also seems to me that > the platform most likely to support rapid development of new services is > the cache system where the data already lives. Rehosting VistA > applications is a tough task. Its going to take a long time, long enough > for quite a lot of other things to be developed. > > (now donning flame proof suit) > Maybe the new HEV VistA won't be such a bad thing after all. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:01 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] BIG NEWS re HealtheVet- St. Petersburg Tim > es > > I think M is easier to learn than many computer languages. > > Certainly easier than ADA, and probably easier than Java, or Delphi/Pascal. > > The complex part about becoming a truly proficient Vista programmer > is the shear size of it, under the hood. We're talking 12,000 files, > 60,000 fields, and maybe 100,000 routines. Not all well-documented, > and done in many different programming styles. Old style, new style, > structured, unstructured, single-letter variable names, meaningful > variable names. > > The toughest programming job in Vista is not writing new programs, but > modifying existing programs and files in a way that does not cause > unexpected > side-effects, because things can be so intertwined, and not > well-documented, under the hood. > > The thing I would have liked to have seen more of, as I've watched and > participated (in a small way)in the evolution of Vista over the past 14 > years, is > more encapsulation, more api's, and more programmer's documentation. > > But, all in all I think M is an excellent database platform, and I would > prefer > to see the VA evolve the current product, rather than move to something > completely different, for a main HIS. I think they should look at > commercial ancillary systems, like: cardiology, GI, eye-care, PFT, > Dialysis, etc. and make it easier to integrate them with Vista, but keep > and evolve the core HIS. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gordon > Moreshead > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 3:59 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] BIG NEWS re HealtheVet- St. Petersburg > Times > > > Nancy, > > That appears to me to be a highly perceptive take on the situation that > includes considerable truth as well. I would second your observations and > perceptions. > > Gordon > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy > Anthracite > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:53 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] BIG NEWS re HealtheVet- St. Petersburg > Times > > I am afraid that part in the report that said that " VA culture inhibits > "raising risks, issues, problems or differing opinions" translates into > people will be risking their jobs to talk to you and be quoted. However, a > search through the Hardhats archives will reveal some who have taken the > chance and have spoken out on the mailing list despite knowing that it is > risky to stick out your neck where others may be watching. > > My take on it is that the M programmers and others within the VA and on the > outside are eager to have an opportunity to do what they have wanted to do > but have been prevented from doing for years, which is to work on > re-engineering the existing VistA, still in M, to modularize it and clean > up > > the code to make some of the very things that management complains about > regarding VistA go away. No only would that remove some of the complaints > about about VistA ("it takes $1,000,000 to change a line of code") but it > would make it easier to port to another language should that ever need to > be > > done. > > This concept that there are not enough M programmers so it can't be done is > bogus. In my experience, programmers know multiple languages and M as easy > to learn as any other. If there are so few M programmers, how is it that > other large M based medical record systems persist and new ones get made > but > > the VA can't do that? I also think that many of the changes that are being > made that tap into VistA to get data are supported by the programmers, > maybe > > in the form they are in or something different, but allowing Java based > programs to make use of the data in the M Database is all well and good - a > multilayered architecture is not opposed by those I have discussed this > with. > > However, there is something to the fact that the people who best know VistA > are getting older and it is time to let them direct the job they are so > eager > to do and let them fix VistA. Maybe this will be the kick in the pants for > everyone that might allow this to happen. > > On Wednesday 13 April 2005 02:24 pm, Joseph Conn wrote: > > Any Hardhats/WorldVistA folks want to comment on this Carnegie report > > story > > > for a story I'm working on??? I've got calls into the VA for comment. > > > > Joseph Conn > > Staff writer > > Modern Physician > > ModernPhysician.com > > Modern Physician STAT > > Heatlh IT Strategist > > 312-649-5395 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Check out the NEW ModernPhysician.com, and register now for Modern > > Physician Stat and Modern Physician Alert > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/13/05 11:53AM >>> > > > > VA faces another computer problem > > By PAUL DE LA GARZA and STEPHEN NOHLGREN Published April 13, 2005 > > > > A report done for the administration suggests that the VA's > > multibillion-dollar plan to upgrade its system is "not realistic." > > > > A $3.5-billion computer overhaul at veterans hospitals across the country > > is poised to fail unless the Department of Veterans Affairs makes drastic > > changes, according to a closely guarded government study obtained by the > > St. Petersburg Times . > > http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/13/Worldandnation/VA_faces_another_comp.shtm > > >l -- Nancy Anthracite ------------------------------------------------------- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. 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