On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Manuel M T Chakravarty <c...@cse.unsw.edu.au> wrote, In reply to Gershom B <gersh...@gmail.com>: > You are talking about a specific kind of new users. These new users want to > install a web stack or similar — i.e., they need tons of packages. These > people may be new to Haskell, but I reckon they are otherwise power users. > > I’m talking about somebody picking up Learn you a Haskell and wanting to > write Hello World. Why should they care about sandboxes? Who cares if they > mess up their installation by installing the wrong package. They can always > nuke it and install it again. That’s a much simpler story. > > Look. I guess, I count as a power user ;) I rarely use sandboxes. They are > great for a particular type of use, but you can do many things quite happily > without them. (Ask SimonPJ; I reckon he doesn’t use sandboxes either.) > > [...] > > The mistake here is to try to make this a one-size-fits all. I honestly don’t > care about a platform that is ideal for everybody. I want something that I > can point newbies at that makes them happy quickly. That needs to be one > download with all the packages that you need to get going included. > > If somebody gets sufficiently hooked on Haskell to want to start a bigger > project, then they will have the patience for a more elaborate story (and > wait for cabal install for a few hours to do its job). > > The point is that one-size-fits-all is inherently unfriendly to novices. A > novice needs something simple with as few options as possible, whereas a > power user wants flexibility and customisability. A minimal installer with > sandboxes gives you the latter, but it comes at the expense of simplicity, > which makes is unfriendly to novices.
I just want to chime in and +1 to this. As both a power-user and an educator (of multiple languages including: Haskell, Agda, Isabelle, Coq), the importance of easing installation for novices cannot be understated. One-size-fits-all is extremely unfriendly to novices. Requiring the use of a novel packaging/distribution system is extremely unfriendly to novices. Requiring compilation of dependencies is extremely unfriendly to novices. Adding choice to users ill-equipped to choose is extremely unfriendly; and novices are, by definition, ill-equipped to make these choices. Relying on cabal-install and hackage is great for active developers, but developers have completely different needs than novices. IMO, anyone who requires a full web development stack is not a novice. In all my years of using Haskell, the *only* time I've ever run into cabal hell issues —and the only horror stories I've heard personally— have been about (1) webdev frameworks, or (2) the now-passed chaos of the mtl/transformers switchover. -- Live well, ~wren _______________________________________________ Haskell-platform mailing list Haskell-platform@projects.haskell.org http://projects.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-platform
