i am stopping now here. my intention was only how to ease the first steps with emacs. the first steps for me are
1) searching for the download-page: (very easy) 2) looking at the page for downlaod (a little bit confusing) 3) installing (easy) 4) first steps inside (difficult, but there is a tutorial) 5) a little bit real working (difficult, because of the hidden examples, i know now, there is the i-command) 6) first customizing (difficult, also with the options-menu to find the options you are looking for) inside emacs all is wonderfull, the question for me was how to get there. i didn't think that people who are using emacs for years can imagine the problems. so i wanted to give some feedback from my point of view. it's a very personal view. and it concerns no longer me because i did already the first steps also with your help. i know now the i-command in the manual, i bought a emacs-book, and so on. but for a potential new user who has no little success after one hour or two (and this is not so little time) it's important to have a sort of guide with the most important things. in this way the new user gets the impression there is a possibility to learn it with not too much effort. otherwise he loose his motivation and goes back to ultraedit or whatever. i thought you want to get new emacs-users. if you want only users who are willing to spent much more time (me) or are very smart there is no need to change. i know also the time to get in is nothing compared with the time you all already spent with emacs, the developers not mentioned. but the motivation to get in is also not that high for new users. christian p.s. to the copy and paste in the menu. i was looking for a comfortable powerfull editor and copy-paste in the menu was far beyond my demands. even with notepad it's possible to copy, paste, replace with s-c, s-v, c-x p.p.s. to david: all you write is right, but thats not the point. inside emacs you can find nearly everything. the problem is to get there. for me pdf or html doesn't matter but pdf is a liitle bit more comfortable, especially for printing and distribuition. -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von David Vanderschel Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2006 20:05 An: [email protected] Betreff: Re: AW: [h-e-w] EmacsW32, gnuserv, pathes in .emacs On Tuesday, July 11, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >again, a short pdf-file with the following points would be very >helpfull for a really beginner. a beginner who doesn't know about emacs >really nothing. In this discussion, I wonder why the official GNU Emacs FAQ For Windows 95/98/ME/NT/XP and 2000 at http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/ntemacs.html has not been brought up. I know that its maintenance lately has been somewhat poor; but the latest update on the Web page now says May 24. It seems to me that it already addresses many of the problems that Christian seems to think should be addressed with a PDF. I do not understand why Christian wants a PDF. HTML seems much more reasonable for addressing these sorts of issues. I am quite certain that RMS would be strongly opposed to a PDF. If it is so that the document can be printed in a way that looks good, it turns out that the source format for the Info files has been designed so that they can also be processed with TeX macros, in which case they are formatted very nicely and in a manner well-suited to printing. Indeed, this is what you get if you order the Emacs manual in hard copy from the FSF. I checked Lennart's EmacsW32 pages, and I could not see a link to the Windows FAQ. On his "Emacs at OurComments.org" page, there is a link to a kind of 'root' page for Emacs: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs.html In its Section 6, Getting Help with Emacs, it references both the general Emacs FAQ at http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-faq.text and the Windows Emacs FAQ. The general emacs FAQ is a bit dated; but for the basic sorts of information needed by a beginner, it should still be good. IMO, its plain text format is not a serious drawback. Lennart, you may not care for the Windows FAQ, but it seems to me that you are doing the users of your EmacsW32 package a disservice by not providing a "for further information" type of link to it. I don't think the fact that you can get there via the link to what I called the 'root' page for Emacs is sufficient. >1) installation and configuration (for me especially > with windows) Well covered in the Windows FAQ. Lennart's package is not the only way to do it; but it is definitely an easier way and a way by which one is less likely to get fouled up. OTOH, the Windows FAQ can certainly give more insight into what is going on in the installation process. >2) simple emacs-commandos like described in the > tutorial in the emacs help menu If "like described in the tutorial", then it would be redundant. To run the tutorial, you need only install Emacs and click on the Help menu. There is no bootstrapping issue here, as no initial configuration is required. >3) more extensivly examples for typical editing tasks > like search and replace, copy and paste, rectangle > editing, ...and so on. only with examples newbies > can see the possibilities of emacs To the extent that they are not already covered in the tutorial, most of these sorts of things are covered in the general Emacs FAQ - in particular in its Section 5 on Common Requests. >4) a few word about the .emacs file and customization Why? The Emacs Info file is fairly thorough on this subject - with examples. Node name: "Init File" The real problem here lies less in how to do it, but in learning what can be customized and what one's criteria for doing so would be. That takes experience with the system; but, as you learn about new packages for emacs, you also learn what about them is customizable. There is no rush though, as the most basic functions are configured in a reasonable manner by default. Furthermore, as Eli pointed out, the Customization feature on the Help Menu will usually put the appropriate elisp commands in a user's .emacs file without the user having to understand elisp syntax. >5) a glossary with the special emacs terms As Eli has pointed out, the 'i' command in Info is very helpful on this front. >it's a little bit like the book which was recommended by vincent: >>The solution I went for was to buy Learning GNU Emacs 3rd Edition, >>Cameron et al, pub O'Reilly. >>ISBN 0-596-00648-9 >but with much less content. for the first activation energy to climb >the emacs-hill. i think the activation energy you have to invest is >much bigger for using emacs than for a comparable tool if a comparable >tool exists at all. Personally, I do not feel that there is any 'gap' which needs filling and which 'gap' falls between the book and the freely available information about emacs which comes with it and which is available on the Internet. For those for whom the free documentation remains insufficient, the book is a reasonable alternative. (I think I now know a lot about Emacs, and I have never had access to such a book.) >p.s. i think the emacs hill for windows user is still steeper. i >installed the windows-binaries from the gnu-page. there was no toolbar >available for me, ? But the Menu Bar is enabled by default, is it not? The functions are there. No need for icons. (I don't think a tool bar with icons would be in the spirit of GNU Emacs; but I think you can get this with xemacs.) >also no copy, paste, ... ? They are right there on the Edit Menu. >so the emacsW32 is a really important project for windows users, >especially for beginners. but also linux users have beginning problems. >i tested emacs also with open suse 10.0. there was no gnuserve >available so that it starts for every .txt-file a new emacs-instance. Only the Windows version uses gnuserv. There is also emacs-server (for which a much anticipated new version is expected to be able to work with Emacs under Windows - eventually). emacs-server probably needs to be configured for Linux. >i know the right way is to open files with c-x c-f or the dired and so >on. but for a new user ist often much simpler to click at an file or to >use the context-menu. Back to Windows? Emacs can be configured so that these things do work with Emacs. I think Lennart's package facilitates configuring it so that it does so. My Windows OS is configured so that Emacs is the default editor for opening any file of type unknown to the OS and for a great many other file types for which a plain text editor is appropriate (like .log, .txt, .java). I also have an "Open in Emacs" option on the Explorer context menus for both directories and files. You can also use drag and drop with Emacs. If the point is about Linux, I would bet that these things can be configured to work as desired there as well. >also the interaction between the kill-ring and the clipboard is with >linux more complicated, at least for me. Its behaviour in this respect is probably configurable. (I have not tried it under Linux; but it is definitely configurable for Windows. In my own configuration, killed stuff does not go on the Clipboard for Windows. (I did that because I use a utility for Windows which maintains a stack of items Copied to the Windows Clipboard. I did not want that Clipboard stack to be cluttered with every little thing I ever kill in Emacs.) I use a separate command to explicitly Copy to the Windows Clipboard only what I want to go there from Emacs. (Also a separate command to Paste into an Emacs buffer from the Windows clipboard.)) Emacs is sufficiently complex that any newcomer is going to have to spend some effort to get started. During the initial learning stages there will be frustration; but I don't think it is fair to transform that frustration into an evaluation of the available documentation. The documentation is more than adequate - in fact, far better than I get with most commercial software products. The problem in Emacs's case is the shear volume of the relevant documentation - a problem that cannot be overcome easily without some commitment on the part of the beginner. But it is ultimately worth the effort because Emacs is so powerful and so adaptable to so many activities. Hang in there, Christian! Regards, David V.
