On 13 September 2017 at 10:51, Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> wrote: >> It's more the number of columns, what if you add more version, should I >> scroll horizontally? Also releeases tend to be shown vertically with >> version in desc order. This model breaks a bit this habit. > > > At least versions are in desc order :D > More seriously, I was more worried about the number of dependencies than > about the number of series. We don't want to maintain a hundred branches, so > we'll probably try to keep the number of series to a minimum, but we do want > to offer as much as possible to users, so we may offer many different > integrations, and thus many different dependencies. Just think if the ORM > team wants to display supported versions of each DBMS... So I thought > showing versions horizontally would be more future-proof. > I'll try to add horizontal scrolling to the table. The oldest releases may > not be displayed, but then those are not the one we want to advertise, so... > And in any case, we have limited horizontal space, so we have to hide > *something*. > About phones, I think bootstrap has something, I'll give it a try. > >> On "Downloads" we only want to promote the active branches; have some >> basic series descriptions but way more ecclectic than the releases >> descriptions. We make them cross-linked and everyone is happy? > > > Sure, we can do that. But the "downloads" page will essentially be a > stripped-down version of the "releases" page.
+1 since maintenance is automated I see no problem with a little redundancy. > > > Yoann Rodière > Hibernate NoORM Team > yo...@hibernate.org > > On 13 September 2017 at 11:48, Sanne Grinovero <sa...@hibernate.org> wrote: >> >> On 13 September 2017 at 10:41, Emmanuel Bernard <emman...@hibernate.org> >> wrote: >> > On Tue 17-09-12 13:50, Yoann Rodiere wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> - Releases speaks less than downloads, Where do I download Hibernate X >> >>> is a question we want addressed from the top level menus >> >>> >> >> >> >> Always amazed that there's still people out there actually downloading >> >> JARs >> >> manually. But yes, we shouldn't forget about them. >> >> >> >> My problem with "downloads" is that, while it conveys the correct >> >> meaning >> >> for the minority (I hope) of users not using Maven/Gradle, it's really >> >> not >> >> appropriate as an entry point to pages giving information about >> >> series/releases. >> >> Let's put it that way: >> >> >> >> - To a user looking for info about a particular release (maven GAV, >> >> changelog, ...) , a "download" entry isn't even remotely relevant >> >> - To a user looking to download packages, a "releases" entry does >> >> seem a >> >> bit relevant >> > >> > >> > You are right on principle. But if you look around, pretty much all >> > software websites have a download button leading to a page where you can >> > find releases, changelog etc. People are trained. >> > >> > http://kafka.apache.org/downloads >> > http://struts.apache.org/download.cgi#struts2513 >> > http://vertx.io/download/ >> > >> > >> > Spring is the exception but they have one big page for everything per >> > project. Not what we want. >> > And GitHub which has Releases https://github.com/google/guava >> > >> > I'm still not recovered from GitHub's move from Downloads to Releases to >> > be honest. >> > >> > If everyone thinks Releases is clearer and more intuitive, I won't >> > block. >> >> - having a "Downloads" link is essential >> - having a "Releases" page is what we think is more useful, for many >> good reasons >> >> Yet we agree they are slightly different in nature. Could we ride the >> differences and generate them both? >> >> Especially "Releases" could be a good home for all older releases and >> the "Past Roadmaps" which Emmanuel suggested before we should have, >> yet I said they don't belong on "Roadmap". >> On "Downloads" we only want to promote the active branches; have some >> basic series descriptions but way more ecclectic than the releases >> descriptions. We make them cross-linked and everyone is happy? >> >> Thanks, >> Sanne >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> But if you really want a "download" entry in the menu... would it be >> >> okay >> >> if it just redirected to the "releases" page? I'll do that for now. >> >> >> >> - if you do downloads -> releases, you need to also write some redirect >> >>> >> >>> rules not to break URLs >> >>> >> >> >> >> I already did. Redirects don't seem to work locally for some reason, >> >> though. They work on staging. >> >> >> >> >> >>> - I don't like the term maintained much, I think latest like you >> >>> proposed makes it more neutral. You could even just name them Series >> >>> >> >> >> >> Steve found "latest releases" "confusing" (if I understood correctly). >> >> I >> >> changed it to "Series" as you suggested. >> >> >> >> >> >>> - The migration guide should probably be referenced from each >> >>> individual >> >>> series page. >> >>> >> >> >> >> Done. >> >> >> >> >> >>> - the matrix does not scale very well to that many versions. >> >>> >> >> >> >> Could you be more specific? Is it that you're having trouble finding >> >> out >> >> which cell relates to which HSearch version, or which cell relates to >> >> which >> >> dependency, or about the size of columns not being the same, or... ? >> >> I'd >> >> rather know exactly what's wrong before trying to mess with the CSS, >> >> because solutions to each of these problems will probably require to >> >> use >> >> more horizontal space, and as you can see we don't have that much >> >> available. >> > >> > >> > It's more the number of columns, what if you add more version, should I >> > scroll horizontally? Also releeases tend to be shown vertically with >> > version in desc order. This model breaks a bit this habit. >> > >> > It does not work well on phones either. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>> - in the dedicated series page, "Reference" is confusing, I'd probably >> >>> replace it with documentation or main documentation >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Done. >> >> >> >> Since there seems to be a general agreement that it's not worse than it >> >> used to be, I'll send a PR soon. We can continue the discussion there. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yoann Rodière >> >> Hibernate NoORM Team >> >> yo...@hibernate.org >> >> >> >> On 11 September 2017 at 15:54, Emmanuel Bernard >> >> <emman...@hibernate.org> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hey Yoann and all, >> >>> >> >>> Thanks Yoann for stepping up. This is definitely much better. >> >>> Here are non ordered comments: >> >>> >> >>> - Releases speaks less than downloads, Where do I download Hibernate X >> >>> is a question we want addressed from the top level menus >> >>> - if you do downloads -> releases, you need to also write some >> >>> redirect >> >>> rules not to break URLs >> >>> - I don't like the term maintained much, I think latest like you >> >>> proposed makes it more neutral. You could even just name them Series >> >>> - The migration guide should probably be referenced from each >> >>> individual >> >>> series page. >> >>> - the matrix does not scale very well to that many versions. >> >>> - in the dedicated series page, "Reference" is confusing, I'd probably >> >>> replace it with documentation or main documentation >> >>> >> >>> Emmanuel >> >>> >> >>> On Fri 17-09-08 14:53, Yoann Rodiere wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hey, >> >>>> >> >>>> I pushed an update to staging. I only converted the "Search" part for >> >>>> now. >> >>>> What changes: >> >>>> >> >>>> - The _data folder structured changed a bit, so that we can >> >>>> introduces >> >>>> a >> >>>> YAML file for each series (5.5, 5.6, 5.6, 5.8, ...), containing a >> >>>> summary >> >>>> of this series and a list of integration constraints (ORM > 5.2, >> >>>> etc.) >> >>>> - The "Downloads" page is renamed to "Releases", since, well, it's >> >>>> about >> >>>> more than just downloads. See >> >>>> http://staging.hibernate.org/search/releases/ >> >>>> - The "Releases" page now includes a "Compatibilty matrix" section >> >>>> based >> >>>> on the new data I mentioned above >> >>>> - The "Releases" page now includes links to one page for each >> >>>> series >> >>>> ("More on the 5.8 series") >> >>>> - There is now one page for each series (see >> >>>> http://staging.hibernate.org/search/releases/series/5.8/). This >> >>>> page >> >>>> includes: >> >>>> - A short (one-line) summary of this series >> >>>> - A reminder of the integration constraints for this series >> >>>> - A section about the main changes in this release. I only wrote >> >>>> something for the 5.8 series for now, and I basically >> >>>> copy/pasted sections >> >>>> from various blog posts. >> >>>> - A list of all releases in this series. >> >>>> >> >>>> What I didn't do, but could make sense: >> >>>> >> >>>> - add a sub-menu element under "Releases" for each series >> >>>> - link to the documentation for each of the latest releases from >> >>>> the >> >>>> "Releases" page >> >>>> - link to the latest documentation and to the migration guides from >> >>>> each >> >>>> series' page >> >>>> >> >>>> What do you all think? Emmanuel, would this address your concerns? >> >>>> Steve, >> >>>> would this be a good fit for ORM? >> >>>> >> >>>> Yoann Rodière >> >>>> Hibernate NoORM Team >> >>>> yo...@hibernate.org >> >>>> >> >>>> On 6 September 2017 at 17:16, Steve Ebersole <st...@hibernate.org> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> This is something I brought up ages ago wrt ORM. I wanted something >> >>>>> >> >>>>> (although ideally integrated with the "more version friendly" >> >>>>> hibernate.org design) similar to what I did atm on the ORM GitHub >> >>>>> wiki. >> >>>>> For example, for 5.2 we have: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> - https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/wiki/Roadmap5.2 >> >>>>> - https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/wiki/Migration-Gu >> >>>>> ide---5.2 >> >>>>> - https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-orm/wiki/ReleaseNotes5.2 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The format could be better and some of this information could be >> >>>>> combined >> >>>>> (release notes and migration guide e.g.). But bear in mind that >> >>>>> this >> >>>>> was >> >>>>> just what I put together to illustrate what I was wanted to do, >> >>>>> generally >> >>>>> speaking - so its a bit "rough" >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 4:17 AM Sanne Grinovero <sa...@hibernate.org> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thanks for that Emmanuel. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I'll fix the one-liner describing the release, I believe we had >> >>>>>> already noticed this in the past: they need to describe the whole >> >>>>>> minor not the micro update. >> >>>>>> The Search roadmap actually also needs a little re-touch, I'll >> >>>>>> propose >> >>>>>> a PR for that too. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Regarding past roadmaps: I don't like to clutter the roadmap page >> >>>>>> with >> >>>>>> the previous copies, especially as they should have a different >> >>>>>> nature >> >>>>>> of not being a plan but being a record of what was actually done. >> >>>>>> Also, we did agree in past meetings to remove all the old ones. >> >>>>>> e.g. >> >>>>>> we never ported the release notes for version 3.x and 4.x as back >> >>>>>> then >> >>>>>> we decided this was no place for that. Happy to revisit this >> >>>>>> decision >> >>>>>> but let's separate them: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> What about a "past releases" page at the same level of roadmap, and >> >>>>>> linking to it both from the main Search menu and the roadmap? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> +1 for Yoann's proposal to re-introduce the compatibility matrix >> >>>>>> (there was one ~6 years ago). I also had proposed to reintroduce it >> >>>>>> more recently, and was not done on the grounds that it gets out of >> >>>>>> date quickly. >> >>>>>> Still users badly need it so unless someone has a better idea, >> >>>>>> let's >> >>>>>> agree on trying to keep it up to date manually. Let's try structure >> >>>>>> it >> >>>>>> in such a way that it won't need to be updated for every single >> >>>>>> release. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>>> Sanne >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On 6 September 2017 at 08:37, Yoann Rodiere <yo...@hibernate.org> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> > Hey, >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > About Search, true, the information is somewhat hidden in many >> >>>>>> > blog >> >>>>>> posts. >> >>>>>> > I'm not sure the roadmap is the right place, though, since we >> >>>>>> > probably >> >>>>>> want >> >>>>>> > the format to be different for past and future releases: >> >>>>>> > information >> >>>>>> for >> >>>>>> > past releases is typically more precise and more verbose, with >> >>>>>> > code >> >>>>>> > examples and so on. See for instance this blog post: >> >>>>>> http://in.relation.to/ >> >>>>>> > 2017/06/13/hibernate-search-5-8-0-Beta3/ . I'm afraid the future >> >>>>>> roadmap >> >>>>>> > would be drowned in the past releases. >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > I was thinking about another problem: we don't have a >> >>>>>> > compatibility >> >>>>>> matrix. >> >>>>>> > We only have a few dependencies (mainly ORM and Lucene), but it's >> >>>>>> really >> >>>>>> > hard to know which versions of the dependencies to use with which >> >>>>>> version >> >>>>>> > of Search, and users frequently use the wrong versions. >> >>>>>> > With that in mind, I would rather see a "Versions" page, with a >> >>>>>> summary >> >>>>>> at >> >>>>>> > the top (including a one-liner for each minor and the >> >>>>>> > compatibilty >> >>>>>> matrix), >> >>>>>> > and one section for each minor (with anchors, so that we can link >> >>>>>> > to >> >>>>>> them >> >>>>>> > from other pages such as the downloads). Or maybe even one page >> >>>>>> > for >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>> > detail of each minor, if there's too much text. >> >>>>>> > I think it would make sense to have all that information gathered >> >>>>>> > in >> >>>>>> > a >> >>>>>> > single place, because all of that is needed for users to pick the >> >>>>>> version >> >>>>>> > they want: they need to know the benefits of upgrading (features) >> >>>>>> > but >> >>>>>> also >> >>>>>> > the constraints (compatibility matrix). >> >>>>>> > Maybe I can give it a try at the end of the week? >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > Yoann Rodière >> >>>>>> > Hibernate NoORM Team >> >>>>>> > yo...@hibernate.org >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > On 6 September 2017 at 09:21, Emmanuel Bernard < >> >>>>>> emman...@hibernate.org> >> >>>>>> > wrote: >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> >> Hey all, >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> I was trying to answer the following question, what is roughly >> >>>>>> >> new >> >>>>>> between >> >>>>>> >> 5.6, 5.7 and 5.8 (minor releases)? >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> My first reflex was to go to >> >>>>>> >> http://hibernate.org/search/downloads/ >> >>>>>> < >> >>>>>> >> http://hibernate.org/search/downloads/> to read about the >> >>>>>> >> onliner >> >>>>>> per >> >>>>>> >> release. Except it’s a onliner per micro release and “minor >> >>>>>> adjustments” >> >>>>>> >> for 5.6.3.Final gave me literally no info whatsoever. >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> My second reflex was to go to >> >>>>>> >> http://hibernate.org/search/roadmap/ >> >>>>>> >> < >> >>>>>> >> http://hibernate.org/search/roadmap/> to find a historical entry >> >>>>>> about >> >>>>>> >> older versions and the main changes in bullet points. No luck. >> >>>>>> >> It >> >>>>>> only >> >>>>>> >> talks about the future. >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> My third reflex was to go to >> >>>>>> >> http://in.relation.to/hibernate-search/ >> >>>>>> < >> >>>>>> >> http://in.relation.to/hibernate-search/> I ended up giving up >> >>>>>> >> midway >> >>>>>> page >> >>>>>> >> 2 of the list of blog entries. It’s a mix of simultaneous >> >>>>>> >> parallel >> >>>>>> releases >> >>>>>> >> with what’s new since the last CR or the last micro kind of >> >>>>>> >> reports >> >>>>>> and >> >>>>>> >> gave up in dismay at the energy I would have to spend to extract >> >>>>>> what’s new >> >>>>>> >> for a full minor release. >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> I did exaggerate a bit the third point but I did give up. We >> >>>>>> >> need >> >>>>>> >> somewhere a summary page of what’s new per minor releases. I >> >>>>>> >> think >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>> >> roadmap page could be the host. >> >>>>>> >> Likewise, we might need a oneliner entry in the download section >> >>>>>> >> (per >> >>>>>> >> release) that points to this minor release summary. >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> Thoughts? >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> Speaking of roadmap: >> >>>>>> >> - HV roadmap is massively out of date >> >>>>>> >> - OGM is lying a bit on the future but at least has the past >> >>>>>> >> summary >> >>>>>> I >> >>>>>> was >> >>>>>> >> talking about >> >>>>>> >> - Search has a good future roadmap but no past >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> Emmanuek >> >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> >> hibernate-dev mailing list >> >>>>>> >> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org >> >>>>>> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev >> >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> > hibernate-dev mailing list >> >>>>>> > hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org >> >>>>>> > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> hibernate-dev mailing list >> >>>>>> hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org >> >>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
