*sigh* So who wants to sum up this thread for us who didnt bother to read it all?
;D > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] På vegne av blkraven > Sendt: 9. september 2005 17:09 > Til: [email protected] > Emne: RE: [hlds] Tick Rate Guide Updated > > Your quite right, just wanted to give a short reply to > Whisper and the rest > of the list to state how I think about the subject (have I > already done that > yesterday? Then sorry I kind of lost track). > > > As far as I'm considered, CASE CLOSED... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Tucker > Sent: vrijdag 9 september 2005 16:20 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [hlds] Tick Rate Guide Updated > > I was avoiding writing a reply, as has been stated by probably about 7 > mails now, the subject in question has been covered. It is for this > reason, you may note, that the conversation had actually stopped from > the list prior to the first complaint being sent. > Subsiquently, two more > arrived. How interesting. > > With regard to the argument, clearly I was upset, and some of > the things > I said were taken too personally, where I had not intention > for them to > have been. Either way, we discussed this off the list and did not > continue the discussion here. Still the complaints keep coming. > > Please feel free to flame me again though, if you think this > was another > "one too many" response, but I feel I just have to say, I had > finished, > it was over, the complaints kept it going into today, nothing else! > > blkraven wrote: > > I respect people for giving good information, like James has done. > > > > I can understand that people want specific information. But > what I don't > get > > is if people get upset when they don't get what their > looking for, really > a > > lot of people are ignorant about a lot of things (me > included, no I'm not > to > > proud to accept my own or someone else's disabilities), and > good specific > > information is hard to come by. > > > > It's human nature to want to help out, so people who think > they have some > > knowledge about a questions their bound to reply with it, > in the end this > > knowledge can turn out to be partly correct or completely incorrect. > > > > I still don't see the point for people to get upset over > this; if someone > > has read something somewhere about an issue someone here is > asking about, > > and he shares it to try to help out. And then gets a load > of arguing, > really > > I still find that rude. > > > > Yes, I kind of have resolved it with James amicably. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Whisper > > Sent: vrijdag 9 september 2005 5:25 > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Tick Rate Guide Updated > > > > -- > > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > > Geeze, some of you are so thinned skinned > > All I want, all I ever wanted, is very specific answers to > quite specific > > questions, thus far up and until now, none of you have been > able to answer > > these questions. > > Finally though, after chipping away and chipping away, > somebody has come > up > > with an explanation about one specific area that does make > some sense and > > gives me at least, a deeper understanding of what it is I trying to > achieve. > > > > The relatively minor banter between blkraven and James > Tucker was such a > > non-issue and they even appeared to resolve it amicably in > the end, and > > James actually gave this list some very useful information > because of it. > > Dabosman, I don't like to debate, I just like to get > straight answers > that > > make logical sense, and so far nobody has provided a > straight answer as to > > why 3 measurements of pings are at complete odds with each other. > > If people were happy to accept answers despite what all observable > eveidence > > demonstrates, we would still think the Earth is the centre of the > universe. > > > > On 9/9/05, Brian M Frain (eternal) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>-- > >>[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > >>Well said LDuke but we shouldn't have to take such drastic > measures. A few > >> > >>are ruining the good for the rest. It is you same guys > always bickering > >>that > >>ruins this list. > >> > >> > >>On 9/8/05, James Tucker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>>Yup, create a filter for the subject line. > >>> > >>>LDuke wrote: > >>> > >>>>-- > >>>>[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > >>>>Is there a way I can automatically send this thread to my > junkmail box > >> > >>>and > >>> > >>>>still recieve the rest of the HLDS mailing list? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>On 9/8/05, James Tucker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>Whisper wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>-- > >>>>>>[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > >>>>>>Well finally an answer that makes logical sense as to > why default > >>> > >>>kernel > >>> > >>>>>>resolution servers fps seem to sit at around 64 > >>>>> > >>>>>:) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>I didn't write the guide from the techincal > perspective, although I'd > >> > >>>>>love > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>nothing more than to have all the technical knowledge > to not only > >> > >>write > >> > >>>>>the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>document but then explain the underlying logic for each > and every > >> > >>step > >> > >>>>>of > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>the process. > >>>>> > >>>>>Then we should begin. Off-list. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>That being said, I also just want shit to work and I > also was seeing > >> > >>at > >> > >>>>>the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>time I originally wrote the thread in the STEAM forums every 2nd > >>>>> > >>>>>question > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>related to tickrate with nobody able to produce a > definitive answer > >> > >>as > >> > >>>>>to > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>how to actually make it work and why. > >>>>> > >>>>>Exactly, and it is for this reason I have a strong > appreciation for > >> > >>all > >> > >>>>>the hard work you have put in, and again you have my > thanks for that. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>My explanation of how rate sv_maxrate sv_minrate relate > to each other > >>> > >>>as > >>> > >>>>>>well as sv_maxupdaterate sv_minupdaterate cl_updaterate > relate to > >> > >>each > >> > >>>>>other > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>managed to confuse even the developers on how it works, and I am > >> > >>still > >> > >>>>>>trying to work out how to explain it better to a less technical > >>>>> > >>>>>audience. > >>>>> > >>>>>Indeed, technical explanations in simple terms are hard. It is > >> > >>gerneally > >> > >>>>>best to stay away from abstractions and generalisations > for the simple > >> > >>>>>reason that they do not expand well to include other, or > more complex > >>>>>ideas. There are many examples of this problem available in the > >> > >>archives > >> > >>>>>of most technical mailing lists. > >>>>> > >>>>>Since the last netcode update, where Alfred announced > that the cmdrate > >>>>>and updaterate numbers should now properly correlate > with packets per > >>>>>second rates shown in net_channels I have found the technical > >>>>>descriptions are now easy to create, and general > explanation is much > >>>>>simpler. Gone are the days when you had to set > cl_updaterate 100 or > >>>>>above to get 40-50 packets per second out of a 100 > tickrate server in > >>>>>certain scenarios. Nowadays, with sane settings on the > server, the > >>>>>client settings work as expected, and achieve predicable > results. The > >>>>>same goes for the server settings. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>Just to let you know James, our GSP actually exists to cater > >> > >>primarily > >> > >>>>>to > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>broadband users, with the majority sitting on sub 50ms > pings and some > >> > >>>on > >>> > >>>>>sub > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>10ms pings so to give them a good end user experience > we tweak the > >>>>> > >>>>>servers > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>up for broadband users with good connections and most > of us do notice > >> > >>a > >> > >>>>>>considerable difference between a 33 tickrate server > with default > >>> > >>>rates, > >>> > >>>>>and > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>a 66 tickrate server with 20000/100 rates. > >>>>> > >>>>>Indeed you will. There is no dispute over proper rate > selection here > >> > >>:) > >> > >>>>>If you look at the settings closely, you will notice > that since the > >>>>>netcode update, you can set sv_maxupdaterate 66 (I set > 67/70 in most > >>>>>places, as sometimes it still sends a little more than > the tickrate). > >>>>>There are no more updates to be sent than the ticks, so 100 is > >> > >>slightly > >> > >>>>>overspecified. This does not cause an issue of course, > as it's merely > >> > >>a > >> > >>>>>cap, and doesn't change anything that occurs in the data > flow in this > >>>>>scenario. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>On 9/8/05, James Tucker < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>Whisper wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>-- > >>>>>>>>[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > >>>>>>>>Please feel free to write you own or tell us > precisely where you > >>> > >>>think > >>> > >>>>>>>we > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>are going wrong and why. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>I have detailed this inline in each mail. Your guide > is generally > >>> > >>>good, > >>> > >>>>>>>and is targeted for a different audience than this > list. I would be > >>> > >>>more > >>> > >>>>>>>than happy to assist you in adding/correcting > anyhting. Many thanks > >>> > >>>for > >>> > >>>>>>>actually producing it. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>I'd love nothing that a logically correct and > complete reproducable > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>guide > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>on how to get the most out of a server. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Unfortunately, I just agreed to spend most of my time > keeping my > >>>>>>>information to myself. You have others to thank for that. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>As some of us have come to find out Valve can sometimes be > >> > >>completely > >> > >>>>>>>open > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>about certain issues and on others they completely > clam up like we > >>>>> > >>>>>we've > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>mentioned the mad cousin that nobody ever talks about. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Indeed. I got a t-shirt too. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>If in fact THE DEFAULT TIMER RESOLUTION OF THE > WINDOWS KERNEL IS > >>> > >>>7.8ms. > >>> > >>>>>>>why > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>do our servers only get around 65fps even though > fps_max is clearly > >>> > >>>set > >>> > >>>>>>>and > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>defaulted to 300 unless you change it? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Ah, well you see, 65fps isn't 60Hz :) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Typcially (as a general, but not accurate rule) srcds > does not run > >> > >>at > >> > >>>>>>>greater than (kernel timer resolution/2)fps. This is > true of the > >> > >>linux > >> > >>>>>>>builds aswell, which more accurately hit 50fps for a 10ms timer > >> > >>which > >> > >>>is > >>> > >>>>>>>the default on 2.4.x branch kernels. FYI - most linux > srcds hosts > >> > >>now > >> > >>>>>>>use a 1000Hz, or 1ms resolution on linux platforms. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>On windows, the timer resoution is around 7.8ms by > default, which is > >>>>>>>around about 128Hz, which is around about double > 65fps. Now clearly, > >>> > >>>the > >>> > >>>>>>>correlation is the same, as the code is the same, and > the problem is > >>> > >>>the > >>> > >>>>>>>same. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>srcds clearly contains some timer dependant code, that > is referenced > >> > >>>at > >>> > >>>>>>>least twice in one frame. This creates an artificial > frame limit, as > >>> > >>>the > >>> > >>>>>>>processor will block busy-waiting untill that poll, or > will yeild to > >>>>>>>other threads, but either way, will not process frame > data until the > >> > >>>>>>>timer poll. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >> > >>archives, > >> > >>>>>>>please visit: > >>>>>>>http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>-- > >>>>>> > >>>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >> > >>archives, > >> > >>>>>please visit: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the > list archives, > >>>>>please visit: > >>>>>http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>-- > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the > list archives, > >> > >>>please visit: > >>> > >>>>http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the > list archives, > >>>please visit: > >>>http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>> > >> > >>-- > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the > list archives, > >>please visit: > >>http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >> > > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the > list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the > list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
