Agreed. Valve just needs to address the demand for fast respawn 32 player servers. Hopefully this event will spark their imagination.
----- Original Message ----- From: bottige...@gmail.com To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list" <hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 10:03:33 PM Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags As the author of the public "dynamicslots" plugin on sourcemod, I would like to point out a few things. 1) The reason I published this mod. Many people were already doing this before I released it and I wanted everyone to have an equal playing field. It seemed reasonable to me that server owners are allowed to change settings dynamically given that they were implemented by Valve that way. Having a server at 24 slots is not, nor should it ever be a contract that it will stay at 24 slots forever. There are many reasons to change these settings on the fly such as accommodating increased demand or managing an overloaded server. If Mr. Dunn decides to rescind this ability, then there's nothing we can do or argue about it in the future. But action should not have been taken against server owners who exercised this feature implemented by Valve themselves. I know there are very vocal people here that prefer everything default. There's likely nothing I can do to convince you, and your arguments would just sum up to the fact we were against the "spirit" of Valve's current goal for TF2 purity as the game designers intended it which happily coincides with your favored way to play the game. But perhaps you can try to imagine if roles were reversed and 32 slots and faster respawn was "vanilla" and 24 slots used to be the most popular mode until quickplay started funneling all the new players away from your server. You change your server to 32 slots fast respawn, and you have players on your server threatening to quit if you don't change it back to 24 slots, slow respawn. So you change it back and find the server empty all day because no one wants to seed an empty server while quickplay is filling every other server. Would you not do anything permissible to alleviate this situation or just give up? I've had many people personally complain to me about the decline of 32 slot servers and other modifications. They used to be the most popular modes before quickplay was invented. And it wasn't because of fake players. Server owners would have used vanilla servers if it gave them an edge in popularity. It wasn't because they were cheaper either. Resource usage goes up exponentially with the number of slots. I have told them to complain to Valve as we adapted with the times to conform to stricter requirements over the years. Whether they did not bother to do so, or wasn't enough to cause Valve to reconsider their goal for TF2 purity, I do not know. While Valve's goal seems to be for purity, our goal has always been to give players what they want. > If they never manage to find the Server List then well, you can only save so many souls. Depending on the general population not to be lazy never works. 2) The plugin did not fail to set increased_maxplayers. The plugin simply sets sv_visiblemaxplayers as a human manually would. This means that anyone who altered this convar manually would also have been banned. I remember when I tested this 2 years ago, the tag was properly and promptly set. Regardless, the increased_maxplayers tag doesn't seem to be useful given that people can tell how many slots a server has at that point in time by looking at the number. The quickplay system also does not use this tag because it also uses the slot number to calculate how much of a penalty each server has. The server browser also allows players to specify by max player count. 3) There are other aberrations besides the increased_maxplayers bug and hopefully Valve will fix them before initiating another banwave. On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 6:06 PM, Gordon Reynolds < thisisgordonsem...@gmail.com> wrote: > Please do not speak for the TF2 playerbase as a whole by saying people want > 32 man servers. For every person you find who gets "bored" with 24 man, or > doesn't like 24 people, I can find just as many that would suggest that > line of reasoning is crazy. My entire server/community really enjoys 24 man > servers, and if we ever found ourselves on a non-vanilla server we would > melt and wither like ants under a vengeful magnifying glass god. > > Same goes for shorter respawn times. Just because you cannot wait your > 5/10/30 seconds to respawn doesn't mean we need a complete rehaul of a 5+ > year old game's default modes. > > This is a really boring debate to have here, but 32 man servers with > altered respawn times are (in my opinion) pretty terrible ideas. This is > why we all run different servers though, to play what we want. If you want > to get "free" traffic however, I don't think it's much of a downside to > play by the rules set by Valve as the best way to play their game. If > players really get bored with 24 man servers then eventually they will go > to the Server List and find someone offering something different. > > If they never manage to find the Server List then well, you can only save > so many souls. > > > On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Todd Pettit <pettit.t...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > How about banning use of plugins that don't comply and banning servers > > that use it? I know you can rename them but many admins obviously are > > completely ignoring this violation. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doctor McKay" <li...@doctormckay.com> > > To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list" < > > hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com> > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 6:57:03 PM > > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags > > > > Unfortunately, I would imagine that detecting servers that run respawn > > plugins would be a lot more difficult than detecting servers that don't > > properly report the increased_maxplayers tag. To detect the former, your > > have to actually join. To detect the latter, you simply need to query the > > server's info. > > > > In addition it wasn't a bug with the plugin, it was a bug with the server > > itself. I fired up my local test server with maxplayers 32 and > > sv_visiblemaxplayers 24. Then I changed sv_visiblemaxplayers to 32 and no > > tag was added. > > > > Dr. McKay > > http://www.doctormckay.com > > > > On Feb 18, 2013, at 6:44 PM, Todd Pettit <pettit.t...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Fletcher, can you please also do something about all the admins running > > the fast respawn plugins that they have been getting away with forever > now? > > I see so many fast respawn servers without the appropriate tags getting > > sent quickplay traffic? > > > > > > https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=69997&highlight=respawn > > > > > > https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=73929&highlight=fast+respawn > > > > > > According to the server counts on sourcemod that is 488 servers > > circumventing quickplay penalties. It is really quite ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Fletcher Dunn" <fletch...@valvesoftware.com> > > > To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list" < > > hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com> > > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 6:20:07 PM > > > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags > > > > > > We banned some servers who had a maxplayers great than 24 but did not > > have the increased_maxplayers tag. It looks like it is possible that > > changing sv_visiblemaxplayers dynamically can result in this tag not > being > > set. We'll undo those bans. > > > > > > If the maxplayers column doesn't inform players, "This server will > > generally limit the max number of players to X" then what does the value > > mean? The only possible way I can imagine a player would interpret the > > consistent, automated upward adjustment of the maxplayers value is that > the > > server is lying to them about what is happening on the server. > > > > > > We'll fix this loophole. Players are entitled to an accurate > indication > > of the max number of players allowed on the server. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: > > hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Abdulrahman > > Abdulkawi > > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 2:54 PM > > > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list > > > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags > > > > > > I just checked my servers and they are actually NOT reporting the > > increased_maxplayers server tag - I think it may have broke after an > > update... > > > > > >> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:50:24 -0500 > > >> From: sc2p...@gmail.com > > >> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com > > >> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags > > >> > > >> I've already talked to someone else who has servers delisted for the > > >> same reason. There are also a few other communities running some > > >> servers that have been delisted. I can't say whether they're for the > > >> same tags or not, but we weren't the only ones affected by this. > > >> > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 5:45 PM, Abdulrahman Abdulkawi > > >> <abdulk...@live.co.uk > > >>> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Well said - I think this does need to be addressed by Valve > > >>> otherwise everything is just speculation / assumption. > > >>> > > >>> Personally, I think the plugin may have glitched or along those > > >>> lines and the required tag (increased_maxplayers) was not > > >>> automatically added when the slots increased; this is if we're > > >>> reading the reason to the letter "server not reporting required > > >>> tags"; which if you did have the increased_maxplayers, then you did > > report the required tags. > > >>> > > >>> I guess if that's a problem, then so will changing any server tag > > mid-game. > > >>> > > >>> I hope that nobody else does get blacklisted, without any clear > > >>> confirmation for whether it is or is not permitted. > > >>> > > >>>> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:20:15 -0500 > > >>>> From: 1nsane...@gmail.com > > >>>> To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com > > >>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Reminder about server tags > > >>>> > > >>>> Loophole? It's by design and valve knows it. This is an oversight > > >>>> which > > >>> I'm > > >>>> almost entirely convinced they'll fix soon. > > >>>> > > >>>> Nowhere does it say that once you start your server you can't > > >>>> change any settings to be quickplay eligble. > > >>>> > > >>>> What if a server goes on a map quickplay doesn't support or is > > >>>> outside of the chosen range of CP,CTF,whatever of the player > > >>>> picked initially. What about servers that let you vote for crits > > >>>> or vote for maps? There's > > >>> servers > > >>>> that enable fast respawn after XX players join. > > >>>> > > >>>> There's also other changes that quickplay disqualifies for so > > >>>> those > > >>> servers > > >>>> should also be blacklisted when they do it. > > >>>> Why? Because it's exactly the same. They make the server quickplay > > >>> capable > > >>>> initially and then change something that would make it non capable. > > >>>> > > >>>> In fact actually changing maxplayers is not nearly as bad as those > > >>>> other things because quickplay technically supports 32 player > > >>>> servers. Just > > >>> gives > > >>>> them a score penalty. Now filling your server with quickplay and > > >>> disabling > > >>>> crits or changing maps... Well those things completely disqualify > > >>>> a > > >>> server > > >>>> from quickplay and should clearly be blacklisted as well then. > > >>>> > > >>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 4:56 PM, Ross Bemrose <rbemr...@gmail.com> > > >>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Soooooo... you're abusing a loophole in the quickplay system > > >>>>> then > > >>> getting > > >>>>> upset when your server gets delisted because of it? > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > >>>> archives, > > >>> please visit: > > >>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > >>> archives, please visit: > > >>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > > > > > -- > - Gordon Reynolds > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
