Hi Ramana,
Thanks for the confirmation (and for the pointer). Yes, the base theories in
your formalized result do qualify as arbitrary in my terminology. :-) I assume
"arbitrary theories" include the usual signature and axioms of polymorphic
classical higher order logic with equality, Infinity and Choice. Your result is
more general.
Andrei
________________________________
From: Ramana Kumar <ramana.ku...@cl.cam.ac.uk>
Sent: 25 October 2016 08:24
To: Andrei Popescu
Cc: Rob Arthan; Ondřej Kunčar; Prof. Andrew M. Pitts; Prof. Thomas F. Melham;
cl-isabelle-us...@lists.cam.ac.uk; Roger Bishop Jones; Prof. Peter B. Andrews;
HOL-info list
Subject: [SPAM: 10.600] Re: [Hol-info] conservativity of HOL constant and type
definitions
Just to answer the question-mark in (2.1), I mechanised a proof that
new_type_definition is model-theoretically conservative for standard models and
arbitrary base theories. To be clear, the proof assumes the base theory
contains "fun", "bool", and "=", and that it has a model that interprets these
types/constants in the standard way. I presume this counts as "arbitrary", but
maybe it doesn't :) (The proof is at
https://github.com/CakeML/cakeml/blob/master/candle/standard/semantics/holExtensionScript.sml#L366.)
On 25 October 2016 at 09:06, Andrei Popescu
<a.pope...@mdx.ac.uk<mailto:a.pope...@mdx.ac.uk>> wrote:
The counterexample I had in mind is due to Makarius Wenzel
(https://www4.in.tum.de/~wenzelm/papers/axclass-TPHOLs97.pdf, page 8): The
theory T containing the single HOL formula "no type has cardinal 3" has a
Henkin model M; yet, M has no expansion to the theory T extended with the
definition of the type {1,2,3}. But actually this extension is not
proof-theoretically conservative either (as it even breaks consistency) ...
In fact, now I see that I have not clearly spelled out all the assumptions of
the statements in my summary. So let me try again, also factoring in the base
(i.e., to-be-extended) theory:
(1) The constant definition mechanisms (including the more general ones) are
known to be:
(1.1) model-theoretic conservative w.r.t. standard (Pitts) models and arbitrary
base theories
(1.2) model-theoretic conservative w.r.t. Henkin models and arbitrary base
theories
(1.3) proof-theoretic conservative and arbitrary base theories
(2) The type definition mechanism is known to be:
(2.1) model-theoretic conservative w.r.t. standard models and arbitrary(?) base
theories
and known *not* to be:
(2.2) model-theoretic conservative w.r.t. Henkin models and arbitrary base
theories
(2.3) proof-theoretic conservative w.r.t. Henkin models and arbitrary base
theories
On the other hand, it is of course legitimate to lower the expectation for
typedefs, so we could ask what happens with (2.2) and (2.3) if we restrict to
base theories that are themselves definitional. Here, the above counterexample
does not work. And yes, Rob, without being able to follow your Heyting
arithmetic analogy, I do see the similarity between a possible semantic proof
of definitional-base-(2.2) and a possible syntactic proof of
definitional-base-(2.3) (both revolving around the notion of relativization to
sets).
But I am surprised that a lot of attention has been given to the conservativity
of constant definitions/specifications, but not to that of the old and
venerable typedef.
Best,
Andrei
________________________________
From: Rob Arthan <r...@lemma-one.com<mailto:r...@lemma-one.com>>
Sent: 24 October 2016 21:37
To: Ondřej Kunčar
Cc: Andrei Popescu; Prof. Andrew M. Pitts; Prof. Thomas F. Melham;
cl-isabelle-us...@lists.cam.ac.uk<mailto:cl-isabelle-us...@lists.cam.ac.uk>;
Roger Bishop Jones; Prof. Peter B. Andrews; HOL-info list
Subject: Re: conservativity of HOL constant and type definitions
Ondrej,
> On 24 Oct 2016, at 20:32, Ondřej Kunčar
> <kun...@in.tum.de<mailto:kun...@in.tum.de>> wrote:
>
> On 10/24/2016 09:16 PM, Rob Arthan wrote:
>> I am pretty sure nothing has been published and, if you are right about
>> (2.2),
>> then I don't think type definitions can be proof-theoretically conservative.
I made that sound too strong: I was just making a conjecture: for "think" read
"feel".
> They could. You can try to argue by "unfolding" the type definitions.
"Unfolding" of types is exactly what I had in mind when I mentioned
the methods used in connect with Heyting arithmetic.
> Again, the model-theoretic conservativity is stronger than the
> proof-theoretic in general. And here you don't have an existential quantifier
> for type constructors so you [can't] use the approach as you did for
> constants.
Yes, but if the unfolding approach works, you would have reduced the
essential properties of the type definition to a statement about the existence
of a certain subset of the representation type bearing a relationship with some
siubsets of the parameter types and you would then be able to deduce
model-theoretic conservativeness. That's why I felt, that if Andrei is right
that
the type definition principle is not model-theoretically conservative w.r.t.
Henkin models (his point (2.2)), then it won't be proof-theoretically
conservative
either, because the unfolding argument must break down somewhere.
It would be very useful to see an example of a type definition that is not
conservative w.r.t. Henkin models.
Regards,
Rob.
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