There are some great authorities who've weighed-in on this thread: Paul Navarro, Wes Hatch, Dave Weiner - and others. Their thoughts are largely consistent with my feelings on acoustics, resonance and projection. As hornists, we respect the instrument too much to make a detrimental or cavalier repair decision. So, after reading this discussion now for over a week, here are some constants which really just come down to basic common sense: - If you own a fixed bell horn that you love - and don't need the bell cut for practical reasons - then don't cut it.
- If you need to have your bell cut, go to the best technician you can find: preferably a horn player. - The best salesman (or the best blogger) isn't necessarily the best brass technician. - Probably best if yours isn't the first bell he's ever cut ;-) - If your local music store's repair tech is a guitarist (or worse, a saxophonist!), maybe you'll want to look elsewhere for that patch installation. Dennis Houghton -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 12:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Horn Digest, Vol 100, Issue 20 Send Horn mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/horn or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Horn digest..." Please edit replies to include only relevant text. Please DO NOT include the entire digest in your reply. For more netiquette information, see: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Today's Topics: 1. Patches and bundled shorts (Brass Arts Unlimited) 2. Re: Patches and bundled shorts ([email protected]) 3. Re: Cut Bells (Larry Jellison) 4. Re: Cut Bells ([email protected]) 5. Re: Patches and bundled shorts (Steve Haflich) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:07:27 -0400 From: Brass Arts Unlimited <[email protected]> Subject: [Hornlist] Patches and bundled shorts To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Howard asks an excellent question about patches, and why people get all bent out of shape if there are any. Answer: I have no idea. A well-done patch can extend the life of a fabulous instrument at a very low cost. It essentially preserves the taper of the instrument. In fact, patches on 19th century hand horns are a mark of distinction, indicating the amount the horn has actually been played. Beware an old horn without patches! -- *Regards, Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited* ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:24:43 -0400 (EDT) From: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Patches and bundled shorts To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" When patches consist of thick massive sheets of brass and far extend the area that needs to be patched or reinforced , the patch can be detrimental to the resonance, etc. I saw a bell on a YHR863 that apparently had been patched by Herman Munster. Three huge, thick slabs of brass sheet had been placed inside the bell flare. When patches are installed properly and the bell isn`t re-annealed during the soldering process and the finished patch is esthetically pleasing, the end result can be very positive. Wes Hatch _www.weshatchhorns.com_ (http://www.weshatchhorns.com) In a message dated 4/16/2011 12:07:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Howard asks an excellent question about patches, and why people get all bent out of shape if there are any. Answer: I have no idea. A well-done patch can extend the life of a fabulous instrument at a very low cost. It essentially preserves the taper of the instrument. In fact, patches on 19th century hand horns are a mark of distinction, indicating the amount the horn has actually been played. Beware an old horn without patches! -- *Regards, Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited* _______________________________________________ post: [email protected] unsubscribe or set options at https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/weshatch%40aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 17:22:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Larry Jellison <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Cut Bells To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Many members have contributed to this subject. Distinguished horn players came down on both sides of the issue of whether cutting the bell and adding the ring changes the horn tone. Some people think the horn tone can be improved. One horn player wrote that he got rid of all his cut-belled horns. What gives? I start from the assumption that everyone is reporting in on what they hear in comparing the horns "before" and "after". I have a theory that human beings hear sound differently from each other. And specifically, some people hear the detail in a complex sound pattern and others don't. What other reason(s) could explain such divergence in opinion on such a "clear cut" issue? Regards, Larry ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 21:48:48 -0400 From: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Cut Bells To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" -----Original Message----- From: Larry Jellison What gives? I start from the assumption that everyone is reporting in on what they hear in comparing the horns "before" and "after". I have a theory that human beings hear sound differently from each other. And specifically, some people hear the detail in a complex sound pattern and others don't. What other reason(s) could explain such divergence in opinion on such a "clear cut" issue? Larry, As a performer, I have played on many horns, both cut and uncut. I have also cut the bells on several of my horns. As a hornsmith, I have cut bells for many clients. Most of my clients are professional performers and while their opinions on cutting bells varies, most can tell a minor difference after a bell is cut. The difference is generally not a question of worse or better, but just one of difference. I don't believe that the difference is necessarily one of how the horn sounds, but of how it responds to the player. While I also don't believe that the result is necessarily negative in cutting a bell, much depends on how well the bell is cut, how carefully the rings are fitted and installed, and most importantly, how the bell is reinstalled by the person who cuts it. In the past year, I have redone at least six bells that were cut by reputable techs. or makers who failed to fit the rings correctly /or reinstalled the bell with tension in it that led to a degradation of the horn's performance. The reinstallation of the bell without tension is an essential criteria in cutting a bell. The fact that you are adding four ounces of metal to the bell generally results in a slightly different feel to the response, and a difference in the residual resonance that the player hears. With all that being said, I believe that your above statement about the difference degrees of what people hear is absolutely right on. And, here is another explanation for the divergence in opinion: Albert Einstein once remarked to the brilliant physicist, Werner Heisenberg, "It is the theory which decides what we can observe." The context in which he made this statement was that our conceptual categories influence what we are observing, even when we honestly believe we are being impartial, neutral, or "objective." Cognitive psychology has produced a large body of research that demonstrates that our raw perceptions are unknowingly modified, filtered, and altered by our beliefs and preconceptions. Paul Navarro Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret.) Navarro Custom Horns ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 19:32:08 -0700 From: Steve Haflich <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Patches and bundled shorts To: The Horn List <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Wes, I'm curious: [email protected] wrote: . When patches are installed properly and the bell isn`t re-annealed during the soldering process and the finished patch is esthetically pleasing, the end result can be very positive. How relevant might the annealing danger be? Since you have performed both bell patching and bell cutting, please comment whether the soldering heat for each operation comparable. My expectation is that normal soldering for either would not cause a high enough temperature (for brief periods) to affect the metallurgy of the bell. My only experience with patching was during the construction of my taditionally-fabricated natural horn bell (at Atelier Harlow in Tokyo). Welding the seams on the bell is quite different than soldering, as it must be performed at a temperature rather close to the melting temperature of the brass itself. If the torch gets a little too hot (contol is based on the color of the glow) once can melt the brass sheet and "blow a hole: in the metal. I blew a hole in my bell during the welding, as is commonly done by amateurs, but such errors are corrected by welding (_not_ soldering) a patch of the same metal. While welding in the patch, I blew another smaller hole in the patch. I am now known in that shop as the person who has a patch in his patch. That horn is still unfinished, but I once had a chance to play the bell temporarily connected to the front work of another horn, and it is a damn fine Uhlmann-copy bell! Only took about 30,000 hours of hammering and scraping and bending and reshaping to fabricate (minor exaggeration) but it will someday be a fine instrument. I hope... ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ post: [email protected] https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/horn End of Horn Digest, Vol 100, Issue 20 ************************************* _______________________________________________ post: [email protected] unsubscribe or set options at https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
