Hi Alex, > -----Original Message----- > From: i2rs [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm (alex) > Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 9:16 AM > To: Martin Bjorklund > Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; Kent Watsen; > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14) > > Hi Martin, > > maybe option 1 provides a way out here. This also has the least impact on the > existing design and implementation, hence preferable. > > However, I still feel that we are dealing with a limitation of the YANG > framework here. I think we are dealing with a use case that was not really > foreseen in the YANG design, i.e. that we might run into data that has > instances > that can indeed be authoritatively owned by a server versus others > representing > more traditional configuration. The one aspect that not really address by > making it regular config concerns your assertion that "any other client can > modify what this client wrote". Access rights could provide a solution, but > not > in the way as currently defined via NACM, since we would need to differentiate > access rights at the instance level, not at the module definition level. > Rather > than seeing how we can make our requirements somehow fit a rigid > interpretation of the YANG framework (that does not allow for special > treatment / behavior of special cases), I would like to see whether the YANG > framework can be flexible enough to still support what we are trying to do.
I'd agree that representation of the layered architecture of network topology models/instances is different from traditional Yang models, thus we need to explore the appropriate solution under the Yang framework. > Kent made what I thought was a very interesting suggestion at the interim, > asking whether this would be an application for metadata. I think this is > something that we might leverage here. We could introduce a metadata item > that indicates for configuration information whether that was populated by a > server, so really should not be modified by other clients (or, when modified, > will > presumably be "changed back" by the server). Or, that might simply be locked > by the server. Metadata seems like a possible mechanism as it can specify instance-specific data. If metadata is used to indicate whether the instance is server-provided or client-provided, one question is does an instance with annotation "server-provided" still belong to configuration datastore? Best regards, Jie > Thoughts regarding that suggestion? > > --- Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:17 AM > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; > [email protected] > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14) > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > > > We can nitpick over how to best express this > > This isn't nitpicking; I am trying to understand what you had in mind. > > And it seems Juergen is correct. You essentially want to mix config and > operational state in a single list. This is not possible to express in YANG, > so you > change the semantics of the formal statements with descriptions. I don't > think > this a good idea. > > I can think of two alternatives to the current design that don't violate YANG: > > 1) Keep the single config true list, w/o the server-provided leaf, > and explain in text that there might be a client > "internal-to-the-server" that behaves just like any other client > (specifically respects locks, makes sure the end result is > valid, and any other client can modify what this client wrote > (module access rights)). > > 2) Split the model into two, one config list and one oper list. > References in the config list can either be by name (implicit) or > use the new YANG 1.1 syntax "require-instance false"; > > > /martin > > > , but hopefully the > > general sense of what the requirement is and what I was trying to > > express is clear. You can have an outside client application maintain > > some topologies / list elements, and have others maintained an > > populated by the server - or arguably an app embedded in the server. > > The difference from the "normal" client is that really it is that we > > want the server / embedded app that is the authoritative owner of the > > information. > > > > Cheers > > --- Alex > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:[email protected]] > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:07 PM > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <[email protected]> > > Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; > > [email protected]; [email protected]; > > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14) > > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Martin, > > > > > > "So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and > > > how is it supposed to be used?" > > > > > > When a network topology is populated by the server, the > > > server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true. > > > > But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change something > > it would behave as a normal client. > > > > > When a network topology is populated by a client app (through > > > "regular" configuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to be > > > set to false. > > > > > > For any given network topology, when the corresponding > > > "server-provided" leaf is set to "true", attempts to edit the > > > configuration of that topology are to be rejected. > > > > This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - "the > > server-provided data can be modified by anyone with proper access > > rights" > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config > > > true", or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that > > > indicates for each topology whether it is server-provided or not (in > > > a separate "state" branch). > > > --- Alex > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:[email protected]] > > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <[email protected]> > > > Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; > > > [email protected]; [email protected]; > > > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14) > > > > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi Martin, > > > > > > > > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app > > > > (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how to > > > > discover the network, then populates the data accordingly. > > > > > > > > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being > > > > able to "mess" with that data. The expectation is generally > > > > clearly access to this will be restricted / controlled. The > > > > topology instances that were populated by the "server-provided > > > > app" should not be "touched" by other apps - it is the > > > > "server-provided" app that is responsible for maintaining them.] > > > > > > > > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch > > > > of caveats. > > > > > > So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and > > > how is it supposed to be used? > > > > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: i2rs [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin > > > > Bjorklund > > > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <[email protected]> > > > > Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; > > > > [email protected]; [email protected]; > > > > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14) > > > > > > > > Alex, > > > > > > > > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config? I.e., > > > > if the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal > > > > client? > > > > (conceptually...) And the server-provided data can be modified by > > > > anyone with proper access rights? > > > > > > > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hi Juergen, > > > > > > > > > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this: > > > > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to > > > > > depend on state data." > > > > > > > > > > Note that this is not the case in the current model. The > > > > > current model is essentially all configuration data. Of course, > > > > > we have this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is > > > > > hence maintaining it). > > > > > > > > > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce > > > > > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server. > > > > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you > > > > > have just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea > > > > > and may not even work. > > > > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that > > > > > in the model. Now, if we have a topology that is > > > > > server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represented by > > > > > operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology that > > > > > is "configured" on top of it? If the answer is "we can't, > > > > > unless we replicate the server-provided topology into the > > > > > network configuration (which makes no sense)", we are screwed. > > > > > Now, we might build it on top if we remove all references / > > > > > dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the problem > > > > > to the user. Basically, no longer have the model express > > > > > vertical relationships. Not a good solution, IMHO. > > > > > > > > > > How do you suggest we address this? The ability to express > > > > > layering relationships between topologies, including cases where > > > > > topologies originate from different sources > > > > > (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement. > > > > > It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need > > > > > to capture as part of the model. There may not be a "nice" way > > > > > of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is important > > > > > that we find a way to do this. The current solution to this > > > > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a > > > > > parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining > > > > > it > > > > > - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the > > > > > "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the > > > > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns? We can make > > > > > it config (to address your issue that triggered this, the > > > > > presence of a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w). > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > --- Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] > > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM > > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <[email protected]> > > > > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Martin > > > > > Bjorklund <[email protected]>; Andy Bierman <[email protected]>; > > > > > 'Alia Atlas' > > > > > <[email protected]>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <[email protected]>; Susan > > > > > Hares <[email protected]> > > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14) > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Juergen, > > > > > > > > > > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder > > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM > > > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <[email protected]> > > > > > > Cc: Susan Hares <[email protected]>; Andy Bierman > > > > > > <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Martin Bjorklund > > > > > > <[email protected]>; Ladislav Lhotka <[email protected]>; 'Alia Atlas' > > > > > > <[email protected]>; 'Jeffrey Haas' > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14) > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm > > > > > > (alex) > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the > > > > > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue > > > > > > > that was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you > > > > > > > are referring to). > > > > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning > > > > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended, versus > > > > > > > one that is in effect etc . This concerns the issue that > > > > > > > some topologies are populated by the server whereas some > > > > > > > topologies can be populated by client applications. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this > > > > > > > up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies > > > > > > > and a > > > > > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect". > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back > > > > > > to what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate > > > > > > config from state. This module makes this distinction a > > > > > > runtime property controlled by a data model specific > > > > > > mechanism. None of the generic tools out there will be able to > understand this. > > > > > > > > > > > > <ALEX> > > > > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion > > > > > > with regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and > > > > > > "applied configuration". If YANG had an existing solution for > > > > > > this, we would not have this discussion. The reason I believe > > > > > > this is similar is that you can view the "applied > > > > > > configuration" as the "server-provided configuration" (network > > > > > > topology, in our case), and the "intended configuration" as > > > > > > the, well, configured or intended network topology in our > > > > > > case. That said, the issue is not identical > > > > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" > > > > > > has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this > > > > > > is not necessarily the case > > > > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were > > > > > > provided by the server / the network itself, not configured by > > > > > > anybody. > > > > > > </ALEX> > > > > > > > > > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. > > > > > Your 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational > > > > > state and not configuration data. > > > > > > > > > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of > > > > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model > > > > > > > (this is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, > > > > > > > but would essentially reflect a limitation of the > > > > > > > framework), leading to unnecessary additional complexity in > > > > > > > the model (every augmentation has to be conducted in two > > > > > > > places), more complex validation rules, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper > > > > > > data distinction. Please explain. > > > > > > > > > > > > <ALEX> > > > > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have > > > > > > in RFC > > > > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of > > > > > > configuration, other clearly operational data. > > > > > > In this case, this is different. You have the same data. > > > > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other > > > > > > cases by the server. > > > > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true. > > > > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or, > > > > > > the categorization depends on the particular instance. > > > > > > </ALEX> > > > > > > > > > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by > > > > > the server and partially populated from config. I fail to see > > > > > how this is any different from other cases, including network > > > > > interfaces as defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does > > > > > not allow configuration data to depend on state data. > > > > > > > > > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules. > > > > > > Please explain. > > > > > > > > > > > > <ALEX> > > > > > > > > > > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs. > > > > > > > > > > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one > > > > > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network. For > > > > > > this purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) > > > > > > network. > > > > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary > > > > > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part > > > > > > of a "supporting-network" > > > > > > of the same network. > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently, we have the following definition: > > > > > > > > > > > > list supporting-node { > > > > > > key "network-ref node-ref"; > > > > > > description > > > > > > "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that > > > > > > this node is supported by. Used to represent layering > > > > > > structure."; > > > > > > leaf network-ref { > > > > > > type leafref { > > > > > > path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref"; > > > > > > } > > > > > > description > > > > > > "References the underlay network that the > > > > > > underlay node is part of."; > > > > > > } > > > > > > leaf node-ref { > > > > > > type leafref { > > > > > > path "/network/node/node-id"; > > > > > > } > > > > > > description > > > > > > "References the underlay node itself."; > > > > > > } > > > > > / > > > > > > } > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we > > > > > > will have to account for the fact that the supporting node > > > > > > could be either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a > > > > > > network that has been "server-provided". That is, we need to > > > > > > be able to allow for both possibilities. > > > > > > > > > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not > > > > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no? > > > > > > > > > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref > > > > > > to be part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to > > > > > > replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference > > > > > > either a server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured > > > > > > network ("branch 2"). As a result, we will have to introduce > > > > > > a separate way to reference elements in list supporting-node. > > > > > > All of this results in considerable additional complexity. Or > > > > > > do you see an easier way? > > > > > > > > > > > > </ALEX> > > > > > > > > > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that > > > > > constraints on config true nodes can only refer to other config > > > > > true nodes in the datastore where the node with the constraint > > > > > exists. See section > > > > > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 > > > > > says that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe > > > > > this I-D is violating the distinction between configuration and state > > > > > data. > > > > > > > > > > /js > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | > Germany > > > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 <http://www.jacobs-university.de/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > i2rs mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > i2rs mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > [email protected] > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs _______________________________________________ i2rs mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
