Walter, Thank you for responding, you've been with SL before it even started, it really matters to us.
Please also address this question: If we could achieve anything, what would we want? This might really help us improve our plans for the future. Regards On Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 8:42 pm Walter Bender, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 7:49 AM Sumit Srivastava <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Insightful inputs, Tony. I want to discuss all of the stuff being talked >> about here, but not now. >> >> Please keep the emails coming, we need more of them from the community, >> especially people who've been with SL for a long time. >> >> >> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 11:31 am Tony Anderson, <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> [snip] >> >> Later OLPC split into two organizations: OLPC and SugarLabs. OLPC for >>> the production and distribution of the XO laptop and SugarLabs for >>> implementation and support of the software (Sugar). This split has had >>> important historical consequences: SugarLabs views itself as only >>> developing the software but not supporting it as a product - that task >>> is left to OLPC (for the XO) and Linux distributions for other >>> platforms. This creates a gap between Sugar Labs and its user community. >>> >> > I respectfully disagree with Tony on this point. A consequence of the > split is the Sugar Labs does not have the same access to deployments that > it did when there was just one organization. But whenever we have been > given the opportunity to directly work with a deployment, we have been > responsive. The gap does exist, but only when we are left out of the > discussion. > >> >>> [snip] >>> >>> One possible future for Sugar is that it is honorably retired along with >>> the XO to computer history. Perhaps recorded as a forerunner of the >>> Raspberry Pi. >>> >> > In fact, the Sugar experience on RPi is pretty terrific. Some of us have > been pushing hard to get more pickup in the communities that embrace RPi. > >> >>> Another future for Sugar is that it again asks 'How can the >>> technological advances in computing be harnessed to bring the ideals of >>> the Dynabook closer to reality?" What can we learn from the Raspberry Pi >>> and the Maker community? Is the Dynabook to be a phone or virtual >>> reality headgear or a game machine? >>> >> > While I think the maker movement is great stuff (and one of the > education-ideas-du-jour) I don't think it is always as focused on > Contructonism as construction. I think we have some features, such as the > journal and portfolio activity, that could help focus the learning > potential of that movement. > >> >>> The critical requirement to avoid retirement is to make Sugar viable as >>> an educational computing environment on the current generation of laptop >>> computers. This encompasses far more than converting code from Python to >>> Python3 or GTK2 to GTK3 to GTK4 to GTK99. One brilliant solution is >>> Sugarizer which eliminates Python altogether. However, this comes at a >>> high price and brings great opportunity - reconstruction of the vast >>> library of Sugar activities. This is a chance to review the history of >>> these activities and to see how they can be done more effectively based >>> on that experience. >>> >> > We put a lot of effort into making Sugar be accessible to its users at > both the level of user and developer and I continue to believe that is a > central aspect of our value-add. While I am largely platform agnostic, I > don't see the current efforts in JavaScript as being focus on this. I had > begun a somewhat facetious project years back: turtles all the way down, > where we would write every Sugar activity in Turtle Blocks. This is more in > the spirit of the Dynabook and Smalltalk (or Etoys). If we want to be more > than a collection of apps, we need to thing bigger. > >> >>> The current GSOC Write project shows that Python has many meaningful >>> capabilities not yet available in Javascript. As usual, this has been >>> interpreted as a problem in programming. Do we want a Javascript >>> emulator of Word? What role does 'Write' plays in a constructionist >>> Dynabook (preparing, editing, and publishing documents)? Such a question >>> might lead to additional questions: Do we have to make the activity look >>> like Word? Does a 'Dynabook' need a keyboard? Will we prepare documents >>> in the future by verbal dictation? Will computer speech recognition and >>> production eliminate the need for traditional literacy? What form will >>> resulting document take: pdf? mp4? >>> >> > Writing is more about editing than transcription (whether through voice > or a keyboard). > >> >>> Another interesting project is the 'Exerciser'. The Exerciser does >>> provide for users to prepare meaningful activities but is likely to be >>> primarily used for evaluation (tests and quizzes). The question for >>> constructionism is the role of such 'evaluation' in education. Is it >>> more appropriate to evaluate a learner's accomplishments by the results >>> of his or her activities (portfolio) or by asking questions based on a >>> fixed curriculum (quiz). >>> >> > Lip-service to the worst aspects of education. > >> >>> One of the original goals of this project - 'one laptop per child' is >>> being lost essentially without a fight. Today, the 'computer lab' reigns >>> supreme. The typical XO in Rwanda is shared among 5 or more learners. >>> Learners are not permitted to take the laptops out of the classroom and, >>> typically, have access to a laptop for only one hour per week. It is >>> difficult to imagine effective learning by construction in such limited >>> time. Even on the Curriculum subject of computing, the typical learner >>> spends 80% of classroom time without a laptop (traditional textbook and >>> lecture method). >>> >> > Not sure what Sugar Labs can do about that except to try to subvert it by > ensuring that the tools that the children use in the classroom lead then to > discover a bit about the tools themselves along the way. > > >> >>> Can we assume that in the future every child on the planet will have a >>> capable personal computer? Can we assume that the interenet at 1MBs >>> speed will be available and affordable to every child on the planet at >>> home and at school 24/7? The current trend is the opposite - computers >>> and reliable high-speed internet are available only to the privileged on >>> the right side of the growing digital divide. >>> >>> Above all, we need to renew spirit of the 'Give 1 Get 1' time, with >>> contributors submitting Sugar activities and sponsors obtaining laptops >>> to supply a school in the developing world, where the internet and >>> computing have not yet taken root. This spirit has to be based on an >>> expansion of the user-base on contemporary computers (e.g. Sugarizer, >>> SOAS, 'sucre'). It also needs an appreciation of the expanding horizons >>> available to computing - speech recognition, computer vision, massive >>> data bases, machine learning, inexpensive sensors, robots, symbolic >>> mathematics, ...). The critical attitude is to focus on 'what did you >>> make?' and 'how did you make it?' and to avoid the temptation to do it >>> for the user because you can do it better and more efficiently. >>> >>> In a classroom, knowledge is available to translate program text in >>> English into the native language of the learner. This is an opportunity >>> for a learner to improve English vocabulary by deciding on the >>> appropriate equivalence in the native language of English words and >>> phrases in the program. This is a clear opportunity for contructionist >>> learning. However, this task is done very accurately and efficiently by >>> a team of experts without learner participation. >>> >> > Another dormant project. I recall the kids in the very first school in > Abuja writing their own spelling dictionary in Igbo. These are the real > Sugar opportunities. > >> >>> Tony >>> >>> On 3/29/19 10:43 AM, [email protected] wrote: >>> > Send IAEP mailing list submissions to >>> > [email protected] >>> > >>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> > [email protected] >>> > >>> > You can reach the person managing the list at >>> > [email protected] >>> > >>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> > than "Re: Contents of IAEP digest..." >>> > >>> > >>> > Today's Topics: >>> > >>> > 1. What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit Srivastava) >>> > 2. Re: What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Alex Perez) >>> > 3. Re: What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? (Sumit >>> Srivastava) >>> > >>> > >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > >>> > Message: 1 >>> > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 05:30:55 +0530 >>> > From: Sumit Srivastava <[email protected]> >>> > To: [email protected] >>> > Cc: Sugar-dev Devel <[email protected]> >>> > Subject: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? >>> > Message-ID: >>> > < >>> caezcgjxvdmdpujblaskugnrw5hxyeeck5nd48zda+jrfwq8...@mail.gmail.com> >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> > >>> > Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest >>> to? >>> > Who do we aim to be? >>> > >>> > I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share >>> relevant >>> > mail archive links if they're available. >>> > >>> > I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I >>> mentioned >>> > might not be a close match. >>> > >>> > Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we >>> want? >>> > >>> > Regards >>> > Sumit Srivastava >>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> > URL: < >>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/attachments/20190329/0f9cae35/attachment-0001.html >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > >>> > Message: 2 >>> > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 18:19:32 -0700 >>> > From: Alex Perez <[email protected]> >>> > To: [email protected], Sugar-dev Devel >>> > <[email protected]> >>> > Subject: Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? >>> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" >>> > >>> > Sumit, >>> > >>> > Great questions, and they're particularly relevant at this phase/age of >>> > the existence of Sugar Labs. They certainly can't be answered in a >>> > single e-mail, however I think this is a perfect conversation to have, >>> > particularly on our IAEP mailing list, which is our general purpose >>> > mailing list. >>> > >>> > Sumit Srivastava wrote on 3/28/19 5:00 PM: >>> >> Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest >>> >> to? Who do we aim to be? >>> > Speaking as an Oversight Board member, I do not believe it is in the >>> > interest of Sugar Labs to attempt to emulate a company like Red Hat and >>> > Canonical. These companies have hundreds/thousands of paid employees, >>> > and their organizational structure is a product of the needs of their >>> > corporate customers. >>> > >>> > Right now, we have a few existential problems on the horizon, one of >>> > which is a long term problem, but which we now need to address in the >>> > short-term: Maintainability. Sugar has a lot of "technical debt", and >>> > unless we can complete our goal of 100% Python 3 compatibility of all >>> > core Sugar libraries and the toolkit, we risk the loss of being able to >>> > be run as a desktop environment on current versions of Linux, due to >>> our >>> > reliance on Python 2. Since Python 2 has been on life support for many, >>> > many years, and is only nine months from being officially retired, it >>> > will no longer be maintained by the Python Foundation, nor included by >>> > default in the next versions of Fedora and Ubuntu. You can read further >>> > details about the sunsetting of Python 2 at https://pythonclock.org >>> > <https://pythonclock.org/> >>> > >>> > <https://pythonclock.org/> >>> >> I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share >>> >> relevant mail archive links if they're available. >>> >> >>> >> I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I >>> >> mentioned might not be a close match. >>> > I personally do not think the core entity of Sugar Labs should be a >>> > commercial entity, but non-profit organizations are completely entitled >>> > to be profitable, and many are quite for the profitable. Personally, I >>> > would like to see the development of a federated model, where we have >>> > country/regionally-centered "chapters" of Sugar Labs, with Sugar Labs >>> > itself taking the in-the-field feedback from our distributed user base, >>> > and incorporating and triaging suggestions/feedback, >>> >> Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we >>> want? >>> > I would love to see a world where Sugar was used extensively, >>> worldwide, >>> > by children in the primary school age range, with a wide range of >>> > actively-maintained activities, relevant to the current curricula of a >>> > variety of countries, and of interest to elementary school teachers, >>> > across all socioeconomic groups. How we get there is the real question, >>> > assuming we want to, and have the organizational will to do so. >>> > >>> > As for what our "long term vision" is, I honestly don't think we have >>> > one at this point, and we should fix that, which is one of the reasons >>> > why I chose to run for the Sugar Labs Oversight Board. Our next meeting >>> > is next Friday, on 2019-04-05 at 20:00 UTC, on IRC, in the >>> > #sugar-meeting channel on FreeNode. Feel free to join us and observe, >>> as >>> > well as ask questions before and after the official meeting commences. >>> > >>> > https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Oversight_Board >>> >> Regards >>> >> Sumit Srivastava >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> > URL: < >>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/attachments/20190328/9fd990ae/attachment-0001.html >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > >>> > Message: 3 >>> > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 08:13:29 +0530 >>> > From: Sumit Srivastava <[email protected]> >>> > To: iaep <[email protected]> >>> > Cc: Sugar-dev Devel <[email protected]> >>> > Subject: Re: [IAEP] What's the long term vision of Sugar Labs? >>> > Message-ID: >>> > < >>> caezcgjxi42ts0yqyocdkytobjnqrmunjzzagg5z_qrd_qxk...@mail.gmail.com> >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> > >>> > Great points, Alex. >>> > >>> > I would love to hear from all of you, especially the senior members of >>> the >>> > SL community, before we discuss all the points one by one. >>> > >>> > Regards >>> > Sumit >>> > >>> > On Fri, 29 Mar 2019, 6:49 am Alex Perez, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Sumit, >>> >> >>> >> Great questions, and they're particularly relevant at this phase/age >>> of >>> >> the existence of Sugar Labs. They certainly can't be answered in a >>> single >>> >> e-mail, however I think this is a perfect conversation to have, >>> >> particularly on our IAEP mailing list, which is our general purpose >>> mailing >>> >> list. >>> >> >>> >> Sumit Srivastava wrote on 3/28/19 5:00 PM: >>> >> >>> >> Do we aim to be like Red Hat? Canonical? No match? Who are we closest >>> to? >>> >> Who do we aim to be? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Speaking as an Oversight Board member, I do not believe it is in the >>> >> interest of Sugar Labs to attempt to emulate a company like Red Hat >>> and >>> >> Canonical. These companies have hundreds/thousands of paid employees, >>> and >>> >> their organizational structure is a product of the needs of their >>> corporate >>> >> customers. >>> >> >>> >> Right now, we have a few existential problems on the horizon, one of >>> which >>> >> is a long term problem, but which we now need to address in the >>> short-term: >>> >> Maintainability. Sugar has a lot of "technical debt", and unless we >>> can >>> >> complete our goal of 100% Python 3 compatibility of all core Sugar >>> >> libraries and the toolkit, we risk the loss of being able to be run >>> as a >>> >> desktop environment on current versions of Linux, due to our reliance >>> on >>> >> Python 2. Since Python 2 has been on life support for many, many >>> years, and >>> >> is only nine months from being officially retired, it will no longer >>> be >>> >> maintained by the Python Foundation, nor included by default in the >>> next >>> >> versions of Fedora and Ubuntu. You can read further details about the >>> >> sunsetting of Python 2 at https://pythonclock.org >>> >> >>> >> <https://pythonclock.org/> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I understand that these are a lot of questions. You can also share >>> >> relevant mail archive links if they're available. >>> >> >>> >> I also understand that we're a non profit and the organisations I >>> >> mentioned might not be a close match. >>> >> >>> >> I personally do not think the core entity of Sugar Labs should be a >>> >> commercial entity, but non-profit organizations are completely >>> entitled to >>> >> be profitable, and many are quite for the profitable. Personally, I >>> would >>> >> like to see the development of a federated model, where we have >>> >> country/regionally-centered "chapters" of Sugar Labs, with Sugar Labs >>> >> itself taking the in-the-field feedback from our distributed user >>> base, and >>> >> incorporating and triaging suggestions/feedback, >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Essense of my question: If we could achieve anything, what would we >>> want? >>> >> >>> >> I would love to see a world where Sugar was used extensively, >>> worldwide, >>> >> by children in the primary school age range, with a wide range of >>> >> actively-maintained activities, relevant to the current curricula of a >>> >> variety of countries, and of interest to elementary school teachers, >>> across >>> >> all socioeconomic groups. How we get there is the real question, >>> assuming >>> >> we want to, and have the organizational will to do so. >>> >> >>> >> As for what our "long term vision" is, I honestly don't think we have >>> one >>> >> at this point, and we should fix that, which is one of the reasons >>> why I >>> >> chose to run for the Sugar Labs Oversight Board. Our next meeting is >>> next >>> >> Friday, on 2019-04-05 at 20:00 UTC, on IRC, in the #sugar-meeting >>> channel >>> >> on FreeNode. Feel free to join us and observe, as well as ask >>> questions >>> >> before and after the official meeting commences. >>> >> >>> >> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Oversight_Board >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Regards >>> >> Sumit Srivastava >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)IAEP >>> @lists.sugarlabs.orghttp://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> > URL: < >>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/attachments/20190329/abb47024/attachment.html >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > >>> > Subject: Digest Footer >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >>> > >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > >>> > End of IAEP Digest, Vol 132, Issue 6 >>> > ************************************ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> [email protected] >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > > > > -- > Walter Bender > Sugar Labs > http://www.sugarlabs.org > <http://www.sugarlabs.org> >
_______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) [email protected] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
