Don't despair, Tom et al, this is purely a question of perception, supply and demand, and has absolutely nothing at all to do with skill.
As you, Tom, well know, being one of the best, and have pointed out, z/OS, requires more skill then ever. Having installed z/OS, z/VM, and VSE dozens of times, the lastest being z/VM 5.4 last November ($80/hr after voluntarilly granting a $5/hr discount for the economy), let me assure you the market is on the way back and things are by no means less complex. With Parallel Sysplex and GDPS there is a greater centralization of data, knowledge, ie power, than ever. And if risk/reward is any measure of value, latest estimates place the time a Wall Street financial firm will stay in business after losing their z/OS system is approximately 30 minutes most of which will be consumed, as one person has pointed out, with yelling, screaming, and handringing. Having worked for such a firm recently which was driven by 44 CICS/DB2 mainframe applications concealed behind Powerbuilder GUI, top management had deluded themselves into thinking the toy machines were actually running the bank and thought they could sunset z/OS in about 10 years. And this the prevaling view among Wall Street "toy machine" top management most of whom have never spent a day in the z/OS mainframe trenches. Perhaps, there are some out there who remember, Du Pont, not the chemcal company, but the Wall Street brokerage house that was run by EDS, Ross Perot, facilities management. They went out of business, because of their back office could not keep up with the trades. A few years after at Citibank, NY, I ran into one of the best managers, directors, I had ever seen. He had complete control, everything organized to a "T". I asked him, how and why he was sooooooo different from all the rest. Where did he come from. He told me he was in charge of Du Pont computer operations. He said he saw it coming but he could not do anything about it. He told Ross he wanted to resign. Ross said if he resigned he would sue him. He resigned and Ross sued. Ross did not win. So if "toy machine" management does not know where the processing is happening, where the risk is, and where the controls, manpower, and budget, are needed to cover that risk, it is only a question of time before history will repeat itself with another Du Pont. On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Barkow, Eileen <ebar...@doitt.nyc.gov>wrote: > It is not easy learning java and the other languages (especially C), but > the fact of the matter is that all the components needed to become a > 'senior java developer' can be self-taught and executed. Java is free as > are hundreds of tutorials and self-study courses and most of the > software needed for development, including web servers and databases > (including IBM products like WebSphere community edition and DB2-EXPRESS) > can > be downloaded, learned and run for free. In order to become a MVS systems > programmer, even a junior level one, you have to actually work for a company > running a mainframe and paying licensing fees for all of the products. > > So it is a lot easier to become a java developer than a MVS systems > programmers, if not intellectually then at least logistically. > > -----Original Message----- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On > Behalf Of Jim Thomas > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:33 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: > Conley rant) > > Scott, > > Forgive me but indeed, point and click is exactly where we are. Take either > Visual Age > or Eclipse as an example. > > Again, Forgive me but what exactly would be the definition of a good > developer in today > world ?? .. > > I maintain, the kids that are coming out of college w/JAVA and or C++ don't > have a clue !!. > > > Kind Regards, > > Jim Thomas > 617-233-4130 (mobile) > 636-294-1014 (res) > j...@thethomasresidence.us > > > -----Original Message----- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On > Behalf > Of Scott > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 3:43 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu > Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: > Conley rant) > > "Since when did point and click become a language?" Is more an indication > of > your "not getting it" than the downward spiral of "those damn kids" and > rock-an^h^h^h^h^h^h^h indie music. > > The momentum in computer science has always been to do more with less. > Rather than asperger-ing it out with ye mighty command-line tools, > computer > science has taken a more humane approach. Create better (and better) SDKs > and methodologies, elevating design and interface considerations to more > than just an after thought. Those SDKs do a lot more with every release > and > a good developer has to have a lot of concepts tucked away in his pocket. > A > "good developer" (then and now) has to know a lot. > > > I'm also not so sure that administering a platform is going to be dumbed > down to "//setup exec pgm=setup". I think IBM has strangled z/OS from a > lot > of different angles, and the belief is that the platform must go in that > direction to maintain a few more years of profitability. Luckily IBM has > gone to great lengths to defile the entire platform that I have no doubt it > would blow up in their face. I never doubt IBM's ability to do something > wrong and destructive, though I'm always mind-blown at how willing everyone > else is to pay for it. > > System administration, now and in the foreseeable future, is hardly going > to > be a "set it and forget it" endeavor. It's going to involve administering > many systems/platforms from a single source, using tools to simplify and > automate. Companies that see the value in this will use it to empower > competent admins, who can use their knowledge to accelerate development > efforts and lockdown security. Know-nothing middle managers, everywhere > else, will botch the rollout of anything good and use it to "cut headcount" > because the IBM-Starbucks School of Management exists to rape all that is > holy in this world. > > Scott > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Jim Thomas > <j...@thethomasresidence.us>wrote: > > > All, > > > > Aside from being a well versed low level developer, I was also an OS > > Systems > > > > Programmer that also took on sub-systems and program products. > > > > That said, many a moon ago, a wise man once posted about the role of a > MVS > > systems programmer (in the future that is).... it was just a one line > > post... > > and it said ..... > > > > //setup exec pgm=setup > > > > Personally, I do not think we're too far away from just that. > > > > Java ?? Visual Age ? .. C++ ... personally, I think all the guru's out > > there > > have contributed to destroying the PC world so now they're on to > something > > bigger > > and better. Let's destroy the mainframe world. Gee.. what would it be ... > > blue > > screen of death or for historic purposes, a green screen of death ?. > > > > Since when did point and click become a language ?. As humans, we tend to > > put > > computers into children's hands ... but hang on, do we also want to put > > knives > > or hack saws or anything else that's dangerous into their hands ?. > Humm... > > I > > wonder > > why ?. > > > > But hang on ... let's look at the so called engineer's coming out of > school > > today. > > If it were not for the fancy point and click applications how far would > > they > > get ?. > > > > Specifically, can someone show me a young college grad that knows what a > > log > > table is ?. > > > > Economy ?? okay .. how come it does not affect CEO's and CEO's that > manage > > to lay off > > just about the entire company ?. > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > Jim Thomas > > 617-233-4130 (mobile) > > 636-294-1014 (res) > > j...@thethomasresidence.us > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On > > Behalf > > Of Gabriel Tully > > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:34 PM > > To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu > > Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: > > Conley rant) > > > > On 2/20/2010 5:49 PM, Pinnacle wrote: > > > > Dude, > > > > > Save your ad hominem attacks. I am nothing if not adaptable, and as > > > far as an attitude of entitlement, I'll give you the benefit of the > > > doubt and assume that you're unfamiliar with what's going on. Bring > > > some facts if you have any and let's have a discussion. Or if you're > > > tired of reading, then stop reading. Obviously you disagree with my > > > premise, but calling me inadaptable and accusing me of an attitude of > > > entitlement doesn't advance the discussion and is incorrect to boot. > > > This is a serious issue affecting the lives and livelihoods of nearly > > > everyone on this list. Discussing the nature of the employment market > > > in z/OS and the future of that market is extremely important, and I > > > will continue to post relevant information on that topic. Feel free > > > to lay out your arguments, if you have any, but stuff your personal > > > attacks. > > > > > > What I'm talking about is an ARTIFICIAL lowering of bill rates and > > > salaries that has NOTHING to do with market forces. I'm all about > > > capitalism and supply and demand, but that's not what's going on > > > here. On one hand, IBM laments the lack of z/OS talent and worries > > > that the lack of talent will mean the death of z/OS in the > > > not-too-distant future (say 10-15 years). So they restart the > > > academic initiative in order to train more z/OS talent. On the other > > > hand, another arm of IBM has created its own Tower of Babel in > > > Dubuque, IA, and declared by fiat that they'll only pay $40/hr for 20 > > > years of MVS experience, less than 50% of the going rate just two > > > years before. The back story on the Dubuque, IA deal is that IBM got > > > millions of dollars of tax breaks in exchange for the promise of > > > bringing thousands of jobs to Dubuque (see the posting a few weeks ago > > > that referenced articles on that subject). Not bad, promising jobs at > > > below-market wages in exchange for tax breaks, but IBM has not yet > > > provided any employment numbers to the good folks of Dubuque or the > > > state of Iowa. I suspect as do others that IBM has finally > > > encountered resistance to the $40/hr price point. I am mail-bombed > > > with 4-10 Emails a week for these positions, and it's clear from DICE > > > and other jobs boards that IBM is blanketing the country looking for > > > people to fill these positions. > > > > > > This is all actually happening, I'm not making anything up. I posted > > > the Java developer position here because I have maintained that IBM's > > > Academic Initiative is doomed to failure. Why would any college > > > student go into z/OS when they can make much more doing Java or Web > > > development? Others have scoffed at that idea, but I've been looking > > > for a long-term z/OS contract since 5/2009, and they're significantly > > > lower than the $700-$900/day offered in that Java developer posting. > > > BTW, if that's what they're offering, you could probably negotiate > > > even more. So I ask again, why would a college student choose z/OS as > > > a career when more money can be made elsewhere? > > > > > > Let's deal with your other point that z/OS systems programming is > > > becoming easier. Really? Unless you have lots of money to spend on > > > OEM software, it's just as hard as it always was. CA's MSM? Only > > > does the SMP/E, deployment and configuration yet to come. z/OSMF? It > > > simplifies dump submission to IBM, if your mainframe is on the > > > Internet, other functionality is a ways away. WLM is just as hard as > > > IPS/ICS ever was, it just changed the knobs. JES2, VTAM, TCP/IP, > > > OSA's, HMC, CICS, DB2, WAS, USS, performance and cap planning, storage > > > management, Parallel Sysplex, Disaster Recovery, hardware planning and > > > installation, etc. Which of these areas have gotten easier? I submit > > > that z/OS systems programming isn't getting easier. Instead, it's more > > > demanding than ever. For every ounce of labor savings in less > > > experienced sysprogs, you need a pound of more experienced sysprogs to > > > ensure that you realize even bigger savings. I've seen firsthand how > > > low-cost z/OS labor ends up costing much more in missed deadlines and > > > incorrect configurations. If you have evidence that z/OS systems > > > programming is getting easier, please post. > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > You are right, I shouldn't have attacked you. Sorry, I regretted > > sending the mail almost immediately. I hope you take it for what it > > was, a bad case of judgment and a fit of nerd-rage and not a personal > > attack on your adaptability or intent. I guess I'm frustrated about a > > lot of the same points you bring up. > > > > I hear about a lack of new talent in our industry, but I've never know > > so many of my colleagues to be out of work. I wish I could point them > > to a $40 an hour job - none would turn their nose up at the idea. But I > > guess you aren't saying that they should. Or are you? That is what I > > don't understand. How does this artificial, and by extension man-made, > > downward pressure on salary have any meaning to someone who has been out > > of work for an extended period? To me it seems like entitlement when > > you post - scoffing at job with a decent livable wage. Here again, I > > think there may be a disconnect. What kind of job are we really talking > > about here? I suppose there are jobs in the industry where what you say > > applies, however the typical z/OS job, in my experience, isn't the > > sysprog of legend - flipping bits, it's a software administrator sending > > dumps to vendors, manipulating text files, and fighting fires. Even the > > title of systems programmer that many use gives the impression of some > > elite computer science wizard. But this isn't an elite job anymore. > > Well, not the jobs I'm talking about. Yes, there are elite system > > programmers, but they aren't just sending dumps to vendors and running > > clone jobs that were set up fifteen years ago and if they are they > > probably won't be for long. > > > > I think this is a result of the job becoming easier. You don't have to > > know assembler or IPCS to do that job. No one cares if your intimate > > with the I/O subsystem and can make z/OS do back flips. It isn't a > > systems programmer job, it is a z/OS administrator. And few companies > > outside of IBM and ISVs want or need to hire those legends of the craft > > anymore. Generally, they want modular people with general skills and > > modular ISV supported software. They are easy to replace. I think you > > are correct in many respects. The job is becoming more demanding, but > > in my experience, that is a result of companies laying off staff and > > expecting those lucky enough to remain to pick up the additional work. > > But there still isn't a need for deep understanding of one thing in > > particular. In fact, it is seen as a weakness if someone is specialized > > and has just one role or if some product needs specialized skills. Yes, > > if you had no OEM software and had to write your own job scheduling > > software perhaps you would be justified. But that doesn't happen > > regularly anymore, does it? > > > > I don't want to down play the skills needed to run an efficient z/OS > > shop too much, but I think the trend is clear. And I don't think this > > is surprising . Things are supposed to get easier as they get > > automated, programmed, and built on past work. Companies would neglagent > > if they didn't take advantage of this. All other things being equal, > > these 'efficiencies' are exactly what will make z/OS viable for the next > > generation, because companies won't abandon it for a platform that > > offers easier administration. That isn't to say there are no jobs that > > require expert skill, it just isn't normal to have a team of them > > running a mainframe installation anymore. Perhaps, that is why the cost > > of software is a constant issue, because the price of expertise has been > > shifted to the ISVs? And as I said before, none of this precludes > > becoming an expert in the field and demanding the $900 a day. It just > > isn't typical anymore. > > > > Which areas have gotten easier? All of them. How else would companies > > be able to run with half the sysprog staff they used to have twenty > > years ago? That is what happened where I work. Perhaps that is an > > isolated incident, but I think it is a trend. However, I identify with > > the idea that to do it right - the level of skill needed hasn't waned. > > But doing it good enough is a compromise that is reached all too often. > > And there are tools and vendor products in place that allow this to > > happen. Why should I care about learning the intricacies of VSAM when I > > have a product that intercepts the I/O and caches dynamically with > > genius algorithms that were written 25 years ago. And if it breaks I > > just open a sev 1 and cry to the vendor. That may be a bad example, but > > the idea of it is true across our field and in every genre. > > > > As far as IBM and Dubuque, I think we should be thankful that is was > > opened in the United States and not a BRIC country. It wouldn't be the > > first time IBM moved system programming work out of the USA (almost all > > of their internals). They have the international resources to make that > > happen with ease. Dubuque and its price points may be a direct > > reflection of that. I really do not think that there is a myopic > > oligarchy twisting their collective mustaches. Does an experienced > > system programmer/administrator deserve more? Probably. And if they > > are having trouble filling positions as you say then they will offer > > more or move it to that BRIC country. The truth as I see it, and I hope > > you agree, is that one can't expect to demand a high tech wage doing the > > same thing for 10, 20, or 30 years. What was high tech 10 years ago is > > automated today. You have to be on the technical edge always. The good > > news is there always is something new to learn. > > > > If you have gotten this far, let me apologize again for my crude earlier > > posts. I really do value your opinions and input. > > > > > > Regards, > > -- > > Gabe > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2680 - Release Date: 02/21/10 > > 07:34:00 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2680 - Release Date: 02/21/10 > 07:34:00 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html > -- George Henke (C) 845 401 5614 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
