Yes, explaining to them that files are not an unstructured byte stream but a 
collection of structured records (with no line endings!) tends to elicit 
confusion.  The most interesting way to explain it I once saw was to describe 
file allocation as "setting the SHAPE of the file so the system knows how to 
store the records".

And yes, like you I am looking back at more than 50 years -- and still learning!

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 4:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

Oh, I was going to mention that surely allocating datasets, either in batch or 
TSO, has got to seem like one of the dumbest and most incomprehensible things 
we do on the mainframe, to a foreigner.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 16:01

In the semi-famous Logica hack in Sweden - I did some research into the 
details, some years ago - the intruders seemed competent to write their own 
binary code and run it in OMVS.  But they bogged down when they had to 
link-edit something; they had a number of failures because of a laughably bad 
JOB card, and eventually gave up.  In Unix they were perfectly comfortable, but 
JCL conquered them.

I was tempted to sneer at the time ("can't even be bothered to read an error 
message!"), but I've been learning mainframe for 30 years now.  Wait, 40 years? 
 My gosh, 50, almost!  I gotta learn to subtract faster than that.  Anyway, 
I've forgotten more than they're likely ever to learn, as the saying goes (and 
I'm by no means expert), so it's probably well to keep in mind that it wasn't 
obvious to me at first, either.

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> On Behalf Of 
Farley, Peter
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 12:23

....I have been using the IBM Zxplore website on my own time for over a year 
now for enhanced learning of some of the "new" technologies available on our 
mainframe systems, and I have been consistently surprised to observe the actual 
difficulties that genuine newcomers to mainframe systems have with many 
fundamental concepts that we take for granted.  The "almost tree-like (but not 
really)" structure of mainframe datasets and the use (and mis-use) of JCL seem 
to be the most frequent cause of misunderstanding and errors, along with 
learning to read and understand the messages generated from a batch job or 
utility execution.

It isn't the client-side tool interface (VSCode vs TSO/ISPF) that gives most of 
the newcomers fits, they seem to pick that up without too many problems.  It's 
the fundamental system operational differences that make it harder for them to 
grasp, at least at first.

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