None of "DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer analyst, manager of operations, programmer, and Operations" are system programming -- so aren't relevant to this discussion.
Many people calling themselves system programmers are in fact installers/configurers/administrators. Those are all useful, but also aren't what most people consider system programming. Without assembler skills, how do you program -- or even fully understand -- systems written in assembler? What I described doing is what most people consider system programming -- maintaining/developing/enhancing system-level software -- and involved skills shared by all the others on my teams at Mitre and VMSG. Someone without assembler fluency would have been useless in both places. Degrees aren't relevant -- that's... The credentials fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone dismisses an argument by stating that whoever made it doesn't have proper credentials, so their argument must be wrong or unimportant. ...some of the best system programmers I've known had no degree. So good for you, degree in math and CS -- but so what? In this discussion, you're downplaying yourself with uninformed comments. As a system programmer without assembler skills, what did you DO? Not where did you work, what did you do that was system programming? And resorting to name calling, the last resort of bad arguments? On Sun, 3 Sep 2023 22:38:25 +0000, Bill Johnson <mellonb...@yahoo.com> wrote: >Sure David, I’ve never been a Systems Programmer other than the last 19 years. >Before that, I was a DB2 DBA, DASD Admin, contractor, programmer analyst, >manager of operations, programmer, and Operations for one of the largest auto >companies on the planet. I’ve worked in numerous industries, large and small >companies, and have a Math & Computer Science degree. Not the idiotic 2 year >tech degree that many colleges created to fast track kids into a burgeoning IT >industry. But keep trying to downplay me idiot. > > >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > > >On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 5:24 PM, David Spiegel ><00000468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > >HI Bill, >More vacuous and specious arguments. > >You said: "... In fact, making changes to delivered software can be >dangerous. ..." >Writing/modifying Exits is not the same as your statement. > >It is evident from what you've written, that you've never been a Systems >Programmer, the highest mainframe technical calling. >Yes, I am being elitist. People who can't/won't code Assembler should >know their place and should not be so arrogant in groups like this. >It almost seems like you're jealous of those of us who do this for a living. > >It took 3 of you to modify an IEFUSI?! Hah! How freaking "bush league". >Grow up and learn some Assembler. > >Regards, >David > >On 2023-09-03 12:37, Bill Johnson wrote: >> 1 persons experience doesn’t prove anything. The fact is assembler is >> becoming less and less important as a skillset. Anyone who thinks learning >> it now is a worthwhile exercise is a fool. Yeah, I went through college when >> Assembler was a mandatory course and COBOL was an elective. Guess which was >> infinitely more critical in my career! In college we coded almost >> exclusively in PL/I, which I’ll bet was in deference to IBM. Never used it >> once in the real world. Like I mentioned previously, one professor said >> there’s no reason to learn JCL because it will be obsolete soon. That was >> 1980. JCL was probably the most important skill of my career. I did make one >> misstatement earlier about never using Assembler. One time around 2010, we >> needed to change IEFUSI. Three of us were able to make the necessary >> adjustments. >> >> In 40+ years in IT, 20+ in tech support, other than the one time mentioned >> above, none of my colleagues ever needed to make changes to assembler code. >> In fact, making changes to delivered software can be dangerous. >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone >> >> >> On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 11:45 AM, g...@gabegold.com >> <g...@gabegold.com> wrote: >> >> I've only had three jobs (3, 14, 6 years duration) before switching to >> freelance writing/editing/consulting in 1994. But I'll chime in anyway with >> my experience using assembler as a critical part of my work. I learned and >> used it at IBM doing operating system development. >> >> Second job was at Mitre Corporation in Virginia, where we installed early >> VM. I developed tools such as a system automation tool used widely in the VM >> community. Same for an early system performance monitor, also widely used. I >> enhanced the interface routine for IBM's OS-based GPSS simulation tool to >> support external calls to assembler code, needed by a user. I and other >> system programmers developed many other assembler-based tools which met the >> needs of our users, who worked on various government-sponsored projects. A >> noteworthy project for me was getting graphics software developed for CP/67 >> CMS to work under VM/370 CMS, allowing a sophisticated simulation system to >> drive an IBM 2250 graphics display device. That application modeled air >> traffic control, allowing someone in the data center to "fly" a Linc Trainer >> small aircraft which interacted with simulated aircraft on 2250 screen to >> model different collision avoidance algorithms. The graphic software was >> many thousand lines of assembler (with comments in French, since it had been >> developed at University of Grenoble). We also -- as did the rest of the VM >> community -- used assembler to understand, debug, fix, and enhance VM. >> >> Third job was at VM Systems Group, small vendor >> developing/marketing/selling/supporting enterprise software. Two early >> products allowed taking snap dumps of the system and intercepting and >> avoiding VM ABENDs -- written in assembler, of course, since they integrated >> into IBM supplied operating system code. >> >> So assembler has been a lifelong part of what I consider to be system >> programming. And as others have noted, it's also occasionally essential in >> meeting application requirements. It also provides a good conceptual >> understanding of how things work at a lower level than that of high-level >> languages, so was helpful in understanding/explaining to users what was >> going in on in their applications. >> >> >> On Fri, 1 Sep 2023 14:43:36 +0000, Bill Johnson <mellonb...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> Which proves my point from a prior thread that coding and using assembler >>> is almost nonexistent. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
