Microsoft's comments have been noted for future reference. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ian King" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:40 AM Subject: Re: It also could prove highly embarrassing.... > Ian and all, > > Ian King wrote: > > > Fleming has indeed attacked the reputation and character of IESG members > > - perhaps you missed that. > > I must have. Reference please? In waiting for such a creditable > reference, > let me be clear. I can see where Jim has been critical of the "Methods" > that the IESG and the IETF employ. I join him in some, but not all, of > those > critical positions. In as much as these criticisms may be offensive to some > > IESG and IETF members, we should all be willing to take and review > our own actions, positions, and practices in a light that is beneficial > regardless of the content of these criticisms, and use them to improve > the IETF and the IESG, rather than trying to shoot the messenger.... > > > I was offended - I know many of these > > people, I know that they serve as volunteers and work very hard, and > > I've seen nothing to suggest that Mr. Fleming has made any contribution, > > anywhere, that entitles him to the same standing as these people, nor to > > make his baseless accusations. > > I believe you are forgetting IPv8... None the less he has brought allot > to bare on what can be possible that is a departure from the status quo > in some areas of technical innovation and standardization... > > > > > > > I did not "personally attack" the messenger; I attacked the message, and > > was quite careful to do so. > > > > I "announced" my intent to filter Mr. Fleming's "noise" as a statement > > of "consensus" to the voiced statement that this person generates little > > but noise. > > This seems to be an attack of the messenger right here Ian! Do you deny > that? I hope not... > > > Your statement about "freedom to remain ignorant" is > > ill-taken; as I stated in my previous paragraph, over a considerable > > course of time I have seen nothing in Mr. Fleming's posts to suggest > > that he is making any meaningful contributions. > > I am indeed sorry that you have decided to take my comment of > "freedom to remain ignorant" as ill-taken. I often choose to remain > ignorant of some things as I cannot possibly become enlightened > about everything. Can anyone? I think not... > > > It is a convenient > > refuge to claim that one is "misunderstood", "censured" or even > > "censored", to seek some sort of intellectual martyrdom, when in fact > > one's statements are pure and unadulterated drivel. > > Again you are indeed entitled to your opinion. However your personal > opinion about another is really not relevant here I don't believe, is it? > If > it is, than there is obviously a process and attitude problem that is being > accepted that possibly should not be. ???? > > > Fleming's posts > > often do not even pretend to have any relevance to anything within IETF > > - for instance, the Milosevic post I mention - and they therefore damage > > what credibility he might be able to garner. > > He was using that as a comparison from and international legal > position. I would have thought that was quite obvious. One might > consider that and extreme comparison, but none the less it is relevant > in that context. > > > And it is demonstrated > > that they mislead those who are new to the IETF environment - a > > sufficient justification for censure, if not censoring. > > There is never a reason for censure or censor, it is on it's face > wrong. Unless of course one would take the view of a dictatorial > posture is proper. I don't. And I do not believe that the IESG > has in the past or should not, nor should the IETF.... > > > > > > > I respond to you individually, so as not to generate even more noise on > > this mailing list - not because I do not stand by my statements. I've > > copied the chairs so that they may be privy to this conversation. -- > > Ian > > I have no problem with this or any exchange with you or anyone being > public... > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:32 PM > > To: Ian King > > Cc: Jim Fleming; Harald Tveit Alvestrand; Ole J. Jacobsen; > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: It also could prove highly embarrassing.... > > > > Ian and all, > > > > Ian King wrote: > > > > > Don't flatter yourself. What Ole suggested below is NOISE suppression > > - > > > a worthy goal. > > > > > > Mr. Fleming, if you have something of relevance to say, say it. I > > fail > > > to see the relevance of, say, your posting from a news item about > > > Slobodan Milosevic. Vague accusations and insults aimed at IESG > > members > > > don't accomplish anything meaningful, either. > > > > I personally have not seen any insults or accusations made by > > Jim at any time. I have seen some potential comparisons. If you > > or anyone does not accept those comparisons, than that is just fine. > > But to personally attack the messenger is not a reasonable manner > > in which to deal with your disagreement. > > > > > > > > > > > I've now read enough of your posts to have verified, for myself, that > > > you contribute nothing useful to this mailing list. Therefore, I > > shall > > > now apply my own local "Fleming filter", in my mail client. > > > > That's fine... I didn't know we all needed and announcement of such > > though... > > > > > > > > > > > Freedom of speech is not a license to compel others to listen - Ian > > King > > > > True. Freedom to remain ignorant is also just fine as well... > > > > > > > > > > > DISCLAIMER: the foregoing is my personal opinion, and in no way > > reflects > > > the official opinion or position of my employer. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jim Fleming [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 8:26 AM > > > To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand; Ole J. Jacobsen > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: It also could prove highly embarrassing.... > > > > > > http://www.bilderberg.org/ > > > > > > > > "News is what someone, somewhere is trying to suppress, the rest is > > > just > > > > advertising" - Lord Northcliffe, British Press Baron > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Harald Tveit Alvestrand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Ole J. Jacobsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:35 AM > > > Subject: Re: It also could prove highly embarrassing.... > > > > > > > anyone with a mail server can establish a poised+censored list. > > > > I won't, for the same reason I gave away ietf+censored. > > > > > > > > It WOULD be an improvement for many of us. > > > > > > > > --On 3. juli 2001 15:52 -0700 "Ole J. Jacobsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Can we have a POISED+Censored list, please? > > > > > > > > > > Or perhaps just a Fleming filter? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > -- > > Jeffrey A. Williams > > Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!) > > CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. > > Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. > > E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Contact Number: 972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827 > > Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208 > > Regards, > > -- > Jeffrey A. Williams > Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!) > CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. > Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. > E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Contact Number: 972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827 > Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208 > >
