The only reason why a RT direct airfare would not have exceeded hotel costs
was because I came early as I attended another meeting in San JOse just
prior to IETF and I was attending a workshop on Saturday. If I had arrived
on Saturday the direct RT airfare would have exceeded hotel costs.

Mary.

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <
[email protected]> wrote:

>  Those prices still sound like a week's hotel costs would exceed them.
> And I would expect the cost of your time to your employer to exceed even
> that. I'm not suggesting airfare prices don't matter, not by any stretch of
> the imagination, just that they are third if you stay a whole week. Or
> maybe fourth, there's also the IETF charge to consider, but that's less
> flexible (week or day) and not highly location dependent. Of course if you
> go for just a day the airfare is quite likely to be number one on the list,
> unless the location is relatively local.****
>
> ** **
>
> -- ****
>
> Christopher Dearlove****
>
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124****
>
> [email protected] | http://www.baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,
> Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Mary Barnes [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* 06 August 2012 15:42
> *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> *Cc:* Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew
> Sullivan; [email protected]
> *Subject:* Re: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)****
>
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>
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>
>  Flights to Vancouver from some cities were extremely expensive.  It
> would have cost me more than twice as much as it did to fly to Beijing, for
> example, if I had taken a direct flight from DFW - it would have been by
> far my most expensive IETF airfare ever. I didn't because I was trying to
> be cost conscious.  However, I could have flown to London in the same time
> it took me to get to/from Vancouver and for about the same price.  This is
> a typical problem when we go somewhere when tourists go (for some reason,
> flying to cities in Canada is very popular when the temp in Texas is 110
> degrees F).     Orlando will most likely be just as bad since it is
> scheduled during a time where many schools in DFW area have Spring Break -
> flight costs right now are over $500 ($560).  I can usually fly anywhere in
> the U.S. for around $300 when I book early.  And, of course, I can't book
> early as my company won't re-imburse unless I use their travel company and
> have approval (which I won't get for at least another 5-6 months).
> Hopefully, the IETF negotiated hotel rate won't reflect that it is Spring
> Break.   ****
>
> ** **
>
> If we were to choose one place in the U.S. to meet, Minneapolis is the
> best choice IMHO.  It's very reasonably priced, easy for many to get to and
> the hotel has adequate space for us (even back when we had many more
> attendees).  Personally, the weather is not critical to me, since I spend
> the vast majority of my time in the hotel meeting rooms, so I'm very happy
> if we meet there in March and November.   ****
>
> ** **
>
> Mary****
>
> ** **
>
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <
> [email protected]> wrote:****
>
> I've never been to an IETF meeting where the plane fare has exceeded the
> hotel cost for a week. Caveats to that are that I have mostly gone for IETF
> recommended hotels, so may have missed particularly cheap hotels, and that
> I have only been to North American and Europe (but that statistic includes
> Vancouver and the even further away western US cities down to San Diego).
> And of course I fly economy, and it's much cheaper including a Saturday
> night in your trip, even at the cost of an extra night in a hotel (at least
> it is from here). An almost exception was Paris this year where I was
> staying fairly cheaply, but that was a cost-shared trip between me and my
> employer, and I didn't fly (I went by train - though that's not cheaper,
> just better). Paris has cheap(er) hotels and a metro I understand, so I
> felt less location constrained.****
>
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> [email protected] | http://www.baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,
> Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>
>
> -----Original Message-----****
>
> From: Sprecher, Nurit (NSN - IL/Hod HaSharon) [mailto:
> [email protected]]
> Sent: 06 August 2012 15:07
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan;
> [email protected]
> Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)****
>
> ----------------------! WARNING ! ----------------------
> This message originates from outside our organisation,
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> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> When you are not close (time), flight cost may become higher in the
> priority (over hotem)....
> Flying to Vancouver for me for example is the most expensive trip....even
> though the city is amazing and the host was wonderful!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> ext Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:56 PM
> To: Daniele Ceccarelli; Andrew Sullivan; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
>
> Dublin's problem was that the venue was isolated from the city. This has
> also been the case with e.g. San Diego. (I'm assuming no personal car.)
> Contrast with Minneapolis (and several other places) where you were right
> in the city. Being in a city is better for lunch and dinner options, taking
> a break to go to a bookshop (or to buy something you forgot to bring) and
> so on. (I'm deliberately not including tourism here.)
>
> However at the moment my priorities to make being able to attend possible
> would be time (so the closer to me the better - I realise that's impossible
> globally), cost (hotel first, flight second, rest is noise) and the ability
> to plan ahead to only attend part of the week. This is the current economic
> reality. Dublin actually scores quite well on those for me.
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> [email protected] | http://www.baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,
> Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> Daniele Ceccarelli
> Sent: 06 August 2012 13:24
> To: Andrew Sullivan; [email protected]
> Subject: RE: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
>
> ----------------------! WARNING ! ----------------------
> This message originates from outside our organisation,
> either from an external partner or from the internet.
> Keep this in mind if you answer this message.
> Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters
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> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dublin panned? I thought it was one of the best venues and locations of
> the last meetings.
>
> What about Italy or Spain? I've never heard about an IETF in Italy. I'm ok
> with meetings outside Italy since i like traveling very much, but i was
> wondering why it has never been taken into account in the past meetings. Is
> it expensive? I think Italy and Spain are much cheaper than France, UK or
> Sweden, aren't they?
>
> BR
> Daniele
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> >Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
> >Sent: lunedì 6 agosto 2012 14.06
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: So, where to repeat? (was:Re: management granularity)
> >
> >On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 11:58:19AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote:
> >> enough merely to have excellent staff.  We need to go back to the
> >> better places and benefit from the learning curve.  This
> >doesn't mean
> >> "no new venues" but it means fewer.
> >
> >As a practical matter, may I ask about which venues you want
> >to return to?  I get your argument in principle, but it seems
> >to me that there has been quite a lot of complaining in the
> >past.  The one factor that seems to me most likely to reduce
> >complaints -- weather -- is evidently beyond the Secretariat's
> >or IAOC's control.
> >
> >People seem inclined to return to the Hyatt in Vancouver,
> >elevators notwithstanding.  We're going to do that.  (I don't
> >understand why the previous Vencouver venue was less desirable
> >-- to me, these venues were very similar, and not very far
> >apart.  I note, however, that the previous two Vancouver
> >visits were near the end of the year, when it rains all the
> >time in Vancouver.)
> >
> >People complained at length about the venue in Paris, so I
> >presume it's out.
> >
> >Some people complained about the hotel room prices and travel
> >expense in Taipei, though I heard remarks that it was a good venue.
> >Should we try to return there?
> >
> >People complained in advance about getting to Québec, although
> >afterwards I heard lots of good noises about that venue.  I
> >note that the weather was great.  Should we try to return?
> >
> >I don't recall much complaining about the Prague venue in
> >2011, which was striking to me because very little seemed
> >different to me compared to our first visit there.  Perhaps
> >this is evidence of the "tuning"
> >you suggest (ensuring the water bottles were plastic, for instance).
> >But I note the weather was excellent.
> >
> >Beijing?  I guess Maastricht is out. Anaheim (FWIW, I thought
> >that was an example of a terrible location, but many people
> >seemed happy with it)?  Hiroshima?  Stockholm?  San Francisco
> >(we thought the crime at Paris was bad, yet didn't complain
> >about being smack up against the Tenderloin)?  Or there's the
> >old standby, Minneapolis; perhaps we could do it in March.
> >The Dublin venue was panned by large numbers of people.
> >Philadelphia, people complained about expense.  Chicago, too
> >(combined with hotel renovations).
> >
> >That gets us back through 2007.  Which of the venues do you
> >think we should return to, to which we already haven't
> >returned or planned to return?  And why?
> >
> >For what it's worth, I would not complain about returning to
> >any of those venues; I personally had good meetings at all of
> >them except Hiroshima, which I missed due to other
> >commitments.  That includes both Maastricht and Dublin, which
> >were both apparently trials for large numbers of others.
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >A
> >
> >--
> >Andrew Sullivan
> >[email protected]
> >
> >
>
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