Thinking this through further and re-reading the discussion and key=place wiki (with apologies for the stream of consciousness), I think I'd propose the following (3 times a charm?) which should be consistent with OSM guidelines and on the ground reality:
Honolulu County = admin level 6 Neighborhood boards = admin level 10 There would be no admin relations between 6 and 10, and all the neighborhood boards would be nested relations directly within the county with no levels in between. Honolulu would have its boundary=administrative and admin_level=8 removed, its polygon fixed to be consistent with real-world usage, and tagged simply as place=city (with outline and place node at the urban center). Other similar places with clear boundaries would get place=town.or place=city as appropriate. Also, none of these areas would use the boundary tag since they don't meet the description of any of the current boundary= options. I briefly considered the idea of having the aforementioned place boundaries be nested boundaries within the place=island boundary for Oahu, but this doesn't work due to the existence of slightly off-shore islands such as Sand Island or Ford Island which are connected by bridges.. -Brian On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 1:56 PM stevea <[email protected]> wrote: > Max says: > > It may make sense to tag the boundaries as place=neighborhood or > something > > like that. > > Please, gentlemen and gentle readership of Imports List, let us tag > correctly. The place=neighbourhood tag (please note the "u" as this tag > value uses British English) is used for places WITHIN a larger place (like > a quarter or suburb which itself is within a city) or WITHIN a smaller > place (like a town or a village). It may very well be that partly because > Honolulu-Oahu as a consolidated city-county (CCC) simply "contains and > surrounds" anything within them that it might be tagged > place=neighbourhood, so that would be a correct tag. But if it exists, I > would want any more-structured, finely-granulated hierarchy to be > preserved. For example, if it were proper to characterize a sub-area of > Honolulu-Oahu as a town (maybe, maybe not), a neighborhood that is truly > within that town should "aggregate with" the town. But if it is a > neighborhood which doesn't associate with a smaller (than city or county) > entity (like a town or village), but rather Honolulu or Oahu itself, then > THAT "hierarchical association" should be denoted properly in the tagging. > This might cause, even force a choice to select place=suburb or > place=quarter as opposed to place=neighbourhood. Please see the relevant > wiki, as this tagging can have subtleties that are difficult to describe, > yet when they are understood, they can logically map quite well onto a > particular urban conurbation with a characteristic "Aha!" moment as you > realize this. I expect Honolulu-Oahu, with about a million people, has > some of this complexity, and I'd like to see it correctly captured as OSM > better tags these. That is why we have different tags of suburb, quarter > and neighborhood. > > Max says: > > It would depend on whether they have a firm enough meaning to locals or > > whether they are statistical conveniences. > > Very much "Yes" to the first part, although if by "statistical" you mean > CDPs (they ARE statistical), then please use boundary=census (if that's > what the boundary is as you enter those data). I agree it's PART how > "firm" a sense of place is to locals, but it's PRIMARILY about selecting > the most correct value of place=*. Maybe it's suburb, maybe it's quarter, > maybe it's neighborhood, but these have subtle differences. Getting them > right so they convey whatever sense of hierarchy there is in the real world > is important. > > Max continues: > > (obviously the places are meaningful to locals, I'm talking about the > exact > > boundaries) > > Again, should you have and enter exact CDP boundaries (a somewhat > contradictory statement, as they are statistical, and can't really ever be > "exact" as they are always slightly changing) it's OK to enter them tagged > boundary=census, but never with an admin_level tag. I'll say it one more > time, a very good place to start (and maybe best in the long-term, almost > certainly best in the short-term) is a NODE tagged place=*. This should be > either centered in the spheroid it roughly defines, or placed at or very > near a "center" which, for example, might be the commercial area of a > village (however small it may be). > > While Brian says: > > Being an extinct volcano, the boundaries are usually defined by rather > > dramatic topographical features. But yet there are some CDPs (Kaneohe > > Station) that are as you say statistical conveniences used locally. > That's > > why I'm leaning towards using the postal service's boundaries as level 8 > > admin boundaries and CDPs as neighborhoods where they match reality on > the > > ground. > > Please don't use postal service boundaries in OSM unless they are > explicitly tagged boundary=postal_code. This is done in Germany in Belgium > but not the USA (or if it is, it shouldn't be, in my strong opinion). In > this instance (in the USA) I believe it is better to use a node with a > place=* tag and its proper value. > > > For eample, if you look at the leeward (west) coast of Oahu, the > entirecoast north of Ko'olina uses "WAIANAE, HI" for its postal address, and > > there are multiple CDPs (e.g. Nanakuli, Ma'ili, Makaha) that are > > essentially neighborhoods, but with boundaries well defined > topographically > > by parallel rivers and ridges running from the mountains down to the > > coast. But then there are oddballs like you have a "Makaha" CDP and a > > "Makaha Valley" CDP just up-valley that in real usage, is one > neighborhood > > just called "Makaha" > > OSM in the USA doesn't really map postal addresses, as noted above, > although I agree that sometimes the name of a post office can offer a sense > of place-name to an area. In that case, please use a node with a place=* > tag and its proper value. CDPs must be tagged boundary=census, not > boundary=administrative and should not have an admin_level tag with any > value whatsoever. It is OK to enter these, but in my opinion, it would be > better to supersede these (you COULD enter both, but that's slightly > confusing to many) with nodes with place=* tags and proper values. If the > proper value for the areas you are talking about here really meet OSM's > definition of place=neighbourhood, then please use that tag. Be respectful > of what higher-in-the-hierarchy entity (town, city, county...) they > subordinate to as you do so, please. And if they don't subordinate like > this, then place=neighbourhood isn't really the correct tag. Maybe > place=village or place=hamlet is a better tag on that node. > > Brian continues: > > Oh, and the whole shebang is contained within Honolulu County which has a > > county mayor and is administered by the government entity "City and > County > > of Honolulu". > > > > Hence I am thinking, for example: > > Honolulu County = admin boundary level 6 > > Waianae (all of zip code 96792) = admin boundary 8 > > Makaha+Makaha Valley CDPs = place=neighborhood boundary, perhaps with or > > without a level 10 admin boundary. > > Yes, to Honolulu County and admin_level=6; this already exists in OSM as > the aforementioned relation/3861844 (properly, in my opinion, with a node > tagged admin_centre and a node tagged label). But, its coterminous > Honolulu relation does need to be entered (as Honolulu is a CCC), and the > existing Honolulu (messy, incorrect, old) polygon (tagged boundary=census) > needs to be removed, or at a minimum must have its admin_level=8 tagged > removed, as this does not belong on a boundary=census polygon. This is > also a weird multipolygon as it only contains one member, if it must > persist in OSM, de-multipolygonize it by making it a properly tagged > polygon, please. > > No, to Waianea as admin_level=8, as that clashes with Honolulu, which > should be entered as a coterminous relation to 3861844, but tagged > admin_level=8 and "City of Honolulu" (distinct from County of Oahu) in its > name=* tag(s). Waianea can be entered (in order of preference) either as a > node tagged place=[town, village, hamlet, isolated_dwelling], a node or > (multi)polygon tagged place=[suburb, quarter, neighborhood], though please > have it clear in your mind — or even a note=* tag — what it subordinates > to, or as a boundary=census (multi)polygon containing NO admin_level tag. > ONLY if there is a formal political structure, like an elected neighborhood > council, should boundary=administrative be used on something like Waianea > (with a corresponding tag of admin_level=10, or 9, if there are two of > these, one at a higher level of the hierarchy). > > It seems complicated. Yet I know and feel the effectiveness at having > tagged with these conventions for years, largely because I have read and > understood ALL of our place=* wikis. (There are quite a few of them). > Please absorb this knowledge and let it guide your tagging in Oahu. Our > beautiful map will be better for it, more comprehensively conveying to all > who follow its guidelines, how particular Hawaiian places are named, > properly. > > SteveA
_______________________________________________ Imports mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports
