Many many thanks for providing clarity, Aparna ji. >From your review, for sure, the ID is not *P. lambertianum* or *P. malabaricum*
The attached photos is all that are available for the ID query ... BUT the key elements are missing, thus it may not be possible to know the ID to the species level. The fruit in the photo appears fairly clear, however not sure whether clear enough for knowing it to be *Paracaryopsis* OR *Cynoglossum* OR another grenus. Regards. On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Aparna Watve <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear All, > I took time to answer this, because in the past I have indicated that > the identification of the genus Paracaryopsis should not be done > without fruit characters together with flowers and good literature > should be checked. (thrice if I remember correctly) > Any way, I troubled Dr. Swapna, to write me the key and description > from Cooke's Bombay Presidency flora, which acc to me is the most > complete. > OK So the key to Paracaryopsis (Paracaryum in old literature including > Cooke)species is : > > 1. Nutlets glochidiate > 2. Stem red, flwrs pale blue with a darker centre ---- P. coelestinum > 2. Stem green, flowers dark blue uniform in colour without a dark > centre ...... P. malabaricum > > 1. Nutlets NOT glochidiate ---------- P. lambertianum ( it was > separated at times as genus Mattiastrum, but not by recent ideas) > > Description of fruit of P. lambertianum: Nutlets usually 2, (2 others > suppressed) reaching 1/2 by 7/16 in, broadly ovate, flattened, "not > glochidiate on the margins or faces. margin entire, flat, extending in > the same plane" as the face or very slightly curved upwards. > > > As you can see from the key, the plant in picture is certainly not > Paracaryopsis lambertiana, as the glochidiate margin of fruit is so > nicely seen. > P. lambertianum is strikingly different in this character although > matching flowers of Paracaryopsis coelestinum. The key in the Flora of > Maharashtra dicot 2 is WRONG, but the description is correct, although > very sketchy. I have seen this species and its non glochidiate winged > fruits in field (Gaganbavda ghat, Kolhapur and Kori Fort, near > Ambavane/Lonavala) and also checked in herbarium of BSI Pune circle. > > SO the plant in picture is not Paracaryopsis lambertiana. > As for what it is, I cannot see the flowers clearly, a back view is > not useful at all, and the size appears smaller than Paracaryopsis, > but size does not matter so much. It can very well be a small poorly > nourished plant of P. coelestinum as it cannot be P. lambertianum or > P. malabaricum. But perhaps one should also characters of Cynoglossum, > a genus fairly close in general look of Paracaryopsis although the > fruits of Paracaryopsis are fairly different than Cynoglossum. > If I visit Pune, I will try to get a picture from herbarium and > circulate the fruit picture so that there is no misidentification in > future. > Web also has some new paper by R. Mill on this genus, but I have not > been able to access it. > > Regards, > Aparna > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Satish Phadke <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Dinesh ji > > It must be the later phase of the plant i.e. Between flowering and > fruiting. > > So the classic colours of the flowers are not visible here. Also the full > > fledged fruits are probably yet to to get developed. Many plants in such > > phases get us bolded out. > > Thanks for the interesting thread. > > Satish phadke > > > > On 2 March 2010 09:23, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> Dear friends, more than convinced that this plant must be the Lambert's > >> paracaryopsis, Paracaryopsis lambertiana ... locally known as हिरवी > >> निसुर्डी hirvi nisurdi > >> Thank you very much, dear Prashant. > >> Regards. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> ... a very good lead, dear Prashant. > >>> Was thinking about it, but the size beats me .. > >>> This may indeed turn out to be P. lambertiana. > >>> > >>> Regards. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Prashant awale <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Dear Dinesh, > >>>> Doesn't it looks like some Paracaryopsis sp. (Could as well be > >>>> Paracaryopsis lambertiana). Just a wild guess.. > >>>> best wishes > >>>> Prashant > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear friends, > >>>>> > >>>>> Inadvertently posted the query to group's moderators. > >>>>> Sorry for the mess. > >>>>> > >>>>> Here is Gurcharan ji's response: > >>>>> > >>>>> x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x > >>>>> > >>>>> I tried it hard to fix, the outside rim with seems to be unique. To > me > >>>>> it does not match with: > >>>>> > >>>>> > http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://www.plantphoto.cn/gallery/photo/2009/6/128888651395401250a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.plantphoto.cn/tu.aspx%3Fid%3D242808&usg=__9HokoemLXI3AtK5YyS4gcYdE8ZA=&h=525&w=700&sz=86&hl=en&start=7&sig2=uJexvTgZuRz5d2Jyy9w9hQ&itbs=1&tbnid=bvh8jXuIthze4M:&tbnh=105&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3DThyrocarpus%2Bglochidiatus%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=Pn-LS4vOJoewrAeGi4GPCg > >>>>> x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Many thanks Gurcharan ji for giving a good lead. > >>>>> Expecting more comment(s) ... hoping to get the ID. > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>>> From: Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> > >>>>> Date: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:19 PM > >>>>> Subject: ¿ Thyrocarpus glochidiatus ? > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear friends, > >>>>> > >>>>> Had sent this query in a personal mail to Isaac Kehimkar ji, who > >>>>> forwarded it to then IndianTreePix. > >>>>> ... thus this ID request is incidently my first query !!! > >>>>> > >>>>> Garg ji had resurfaced it once ... did not get any response, possibly > >>>>> for want of details. > >>>>> > >>>>> Two of my flickr friends - Tony suggested it to be a member of > >>>>> Boraginaceae, few months back ... and recently, Tanay Bose says it > must be > >>>>> Thyrocarpus glochidiatus. > >>>>> > >>>>> Earnest request for comment(s). > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Date/Time : October 25, 2008 at 11.43am > >>>>> Location Place : Karnala Bird Sanctuary ... Altitude : 104 m ± 3 m > >>>>> ... GPS : 18°53'27.01"N, 73° 7'3.50"E ± few seconds. > >>>>> Habitat : Wild ... Type : mixed deciduous forest, under tree-cover > >>>>> Plant Habit : Herb ... Height : about 50 -70 cm ... Length : - NO - > >>>>> Leaves Type : do not know ... Shape : do not know ... Size : do not > >>>>> know > >>>>> Inflorescence Type : terminal racemous ... Size : about 25 - 30 cm > >>>>> Flowers Size : about 3 mm ... Colour : do not know ... Calyx : as in > >>>>> photo ... Bracts : do not know > >>>>> Fruits Type : as in photo ... Shape : as in photo ... Size : about 3 > mm > >>>>> ... Seeds : do not know > >>>>> Other Info : > >>>>> Fragrance : do not know ... Pollinator : do not know ... Uses : do > >>>>> not know > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>>> Groups "efloraofindia" group. > >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>>> [email protected]<indiantreepix%[email protected]> > . > >>>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix?hl=en. > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "efloraofindia" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> [email protected]<indiantreepix%[email protected]> > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "efloraofindia" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]<indiantreepix%[email protected]> > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > Dr. Aparna Watve > Dr. Aparna Watve > Asha Appt, Shanti Nagar, Ekata Colony > Nr. BSNL tower, Akbar Ward, > Seoni.480661 > tel: 07692-228115 > mobile: (0)9755667710 and 9822597288 still works > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix?hl=en.
