Thanks, Chadwell ji, for your views. On 22 Oct 2016 8:25 am, "C CHADWELL" <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> I am still very new both to 'The Plant List' and 'Catalogue of Life'. > > Whether or not CoL has higher standing in the world of taxonomy, I cannot > say at present but even if it > does, then one would only go here for, in theory more reliable > NOMENCLATURE and TAXONOMIC treatment. > > The important question is RELIABILITY of IDENTIFICATION - all CoL provides > is a NAME. > > Whereas 'The Plant List' allows me to look at images of each species > (where they exist and bearing in mind > many are misidentified, though I can usually judge their reliability) and > herbarium specimens at Kew (when they exist > and bearing in mind Kew often has plants named using an old synonym not > necessarily the currently accepted name > in 'The Plant List' or CoL. > > *A plant is still CORRECTLY identified even if one uses an older synonym.* > > *Identification is one thing, nomenclature and taxonomic treatments are > separate.* > > *In the early days of 'The Plant Finder' in the UK (which lists by genus > and species) plants availale in* > *cultivation from nurseries not much effort was put into consistent and > reliable nomenclature. Then much* > *effort (and some expertise) was put in but there was confusion between > up-to-date names (correctly spelt)* > *and reliable identifications. Just because a nursery says they are > growing a particular plant is what they claim* > *does not guarantee it - I repeat that my informal studies suggest at > least 50% of plants in cultivation under* > *Himalayan names, whether seed companies, specialist nurseries or botanic > garden Index Semina, are misidentified.* > > *Just because a nursery has a picture on the internet names as a Himalayan > species does not mean it actually is.* > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Saroj Kasaju <kasajusa...@gmail.com> > *To:* J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> > *Cc:* C CHADWELL <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>; D.S Rawat < > drdsrawat.alpin...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. > com> > *Sent:* Thursday, 20 October 2016, 9:26 > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:254113] Re: Fwd: SK99SEP12-1016:ID > > Thank you Mr. Garg. > > I guess CoL is more reliable for ID. > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 11:11 AM, J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thanks, Chadwell ji & Saroj ji, > Earlier it was GRIN, which was supposed to be very good, but it did gave > only a few synonyms. > > After that there were some efforts by ITIS & Species 2000. > > Further things changed with the coming of The Plant List in 2012, which I > think was further modified in 2014 with Ver. 1.1, to reduce the anomalies. > But it is based on *fixed datasets *taken from different sources like > WCSP, ILDIS, GCC etc. However, there are still lot of discrepancies. But > here the most important thing is to check the underlying source like WCSP, > ILDIS, GCC etc. before arriving at any decision. > > Now Catalogue of Life > <http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/89cbce241349f1bd7d3fbdc652a99f09> > has been released in 2016 (with the working together of ITIS & Species > 2000 along with WCSP & other databases), which I find is generally better > than the The Plant List Ver. 1.1. > Pl. see its details at http://www.catalogueoflife.org /col/info/about > <http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/info/about> > > Along with the resources as above, we can also check in different efloras > like Flora of China, Flora of Pakistan, BSI Flora of India & local floras > etc. & take a final decision based on ones' judgement. > > On 20 October 2016 at 00:49, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>> wrote: > > Thanks for tracking down *Alectra sessiflora* on 'The Plant List' - *this > is the one you should* > *always go to first and have the greatest confidence in* (though is not > perfect with the Google > images simply obtained [without permission or contacting anyone - some of > my photos and links > to a site I have taken down are used and rely on the identification > efforts of all sorts of people - *many* > cannot be relied upon but some are correct; also the Kew herbarium site > has two main problems in the > some of the names used for the specimens are out-of-date synonyms plus the > images are not of high > resolution, so one cannot see much detail). > > It is a collaboration between the RBG, Kew and the Missouri Botanical > Garden - two of the leading botanical > institutions in the world. This site therefore out-ranks anything else - > *unless > you have a site which has input* > *from those specialising in the region or country who can improve upon > what 'The Plant List' offers -* > *not many sites do.* > > *'The Plant List' is the most reliable but far from perfect - as, > unfortunately, is the case with plant identification,* > *it is not as exact as we would like. The plants themselves do not allow > it to be! And as I keep saying, the* > *flora of the Himalaya (my speciality) and India as a whole is imperfectly > known.* > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Saroj Kasaju <kasajusa...@gmail.com> > *To:* C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.c om > <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>> > *Cc:* J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com>; D.S Rawat < > drdsrawat.alpin...@gmail.com> ; efloraofindia <indiantree...@googlegroups.co > m <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>> > *Sent:* Wednesday, 19 October 2016, 18:06 > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:254113] Re: Fwd: SK99SEP12-1016:ID > > Dear Mr, Chadwell, > > https://www.google.com.np/url? sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=we > b&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahU KEwi9mr_Ep-fPAhWKMI8KHaTgC0sQF > ggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. theplantlist.org%2Ftpl% > 2Frecord%2Fkew-2627981&usg= AFQjCNFnLH_py3RLR0lQDmQiDUpkF2 > rlkg&sig2=QfNyicMYFWDx6Z9jopPk FAA > <https://www.google.com.np/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi9mr_Ep-fPAhWKMI8KHaTgC0sQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theplantlist.org%2Ftpl%2Frecord%2Fkew-2627981&usg=AFQjCNFnLH_py3RLR0lQDmQiDUpkF2rlkg&sig2=QfNyicMYFWDx6Z9jopPkFAA> > > > Which one to rely upon? > > Thank you. > > Saroj Kasaju > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 10:17 PM, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.c > om <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>> wrote: > > But what is the accepted name for 'The Plant List'? > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Saroj Kasaju <kasajusa...@gmail.com> > *To:* J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> > *Cc:* C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>>; D.S Rawat < > drdsrawat.alpin...@gmail.com> ; efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. > com <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>> > *Sent:* Wednesday, 19 October 2016, 8:08 > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:254113] Re: Fwd: SK99SEP12-1016:ID > > Dear all, > > Hell of a task for all . > Thank you all for the painstaking efforts for the ID. > > Now do we presume accepted name according to the Catalogue of life, India > Biodiversity Portal and Bhutan Diversity Portal as : > > *Alectra avensis *(Benth.) Merr. (accepted name) > syn: *Melasma avense ??* > > > *http://www.catalogueoflife. org/col/details/species/id/ > 76f2881062521e8404df3445a01e75 b9 > <http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/76f2881062521e8404df3445a01e75b9>* > > > *https://www.google.com.np/url? sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source= > web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved= 0ahUKEwjbwajepObPAhUUTY8KHULDD > V0QFghAMAs&url=http%3A%2F% 2Fbiodiversity.bt%2Fspecies% 2Fshow%2F1494&usg= > AFQjCNF9aMMEQYFrm3W0pZ_ DPx6DhO_ZpA&sig2= NiTZtkSYeLepNdP0WIhogQ > <https://www.google.com.np/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjbwajepObPAhUUTY8KHULDDV0QFghAMAs&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbiodiversity.bt%2Fspecies%2Fshow%2F1494&usg=AFQjCNF9aMMEQYFrm3W0pZ_DPx6DhO_ZpA&sig2=NiTZtkSYeLepNdP0WIhogQ>* > > > *https://www.google.com.np/url? sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source= > web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved= 0ahUKEwjbwajepObPAhUUTY8KHULDD > V0QFghFMAw&url=http%3A%2F% 2Findiabiodiversity.org% > 2Fspecies%2Fshow%2F249877&usg= AFQjCNGDkrLtIMO8lmcBSfZL33xUkf > QlUw&sig2=cZy0yE59R- bLmW1i5XihbA > <https://www.google.com.np/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjbwajepObPAhUUTY8KHULDDV0QFghFMAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Findiabiodiversity.org%2Fspecies%2Fshow%2F249877&usg=AFQjCNGDkrLtIMO8lmcBSfZL33xUkfQlUw&sig2=cZy0yE59R-bLmW1i5XihbA>* > > Thank you. > > Saroj Kasaju > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:03 AM, J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thanks, Rawat ji & Chadwell ji. > It is under *Orobanchaceae* > <http://www.theplantlist.org/1.1/browse/A/Orobanchaceae/> as per the Plant > List Ver. 1.1 <http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/tro-50182562> > > On 18 October 2016 at 21:25, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>> wrote: > > Dear Dr Rawat > > Well Done. I am in agreement that your suggestion is awfully close. Pity > the images do not > show fully developed flowers or better close-ups. > > 'Enumeration of Flowering Plants of Nepal' say 1000-2600m Himalaya, > India, east to W&C China, Malaysia. > > But the nomenclature is complicated. They have it as *Melasma arvense*. > Hooker knew it as *Alectra indica*. > > Whichever genus is currently accepted, they have been transferred from > Scrophulariaceae to *Orobanchaceae*. > > *I hear some non-botanists thinking that not only do taxonomists change > species names and names of genera* > *but families as well!* > > *Unfortunately, M.arvense is not currently an accepted name on 'The Plant > List' - I cannot readily find which genus it * > *is included under here?* > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* D.S Rawat <drdsrawat.alpin...@gmail.com> > *To:* C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.c om > <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>> > *Cc:* J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia > <indiantree...@googlegroups.co > m <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>>; Saroj Kasaju <kasajusa...@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 18 October 2016, 15:54 > *Subject:* Re: Fwd: SK99SEP12-1016:ID > > I invested some time to find the ID of this plant which I have never seen > in nature. > It is either Melasma avense (=Alectra avensis) of Scrophulariaceae or a > species very close to it. > DSRawat Pantnagar > > > Dr D.S.Rawat > Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & > Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA > *eflorapantnagar* <https://sites.google.com/site/eflorapantnagar/home> > displaying wild flora of Pantnagar > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:32 AM, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.c > om <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>> wrote: > > This plant is neither *Rhinanthus minor* (known as 'Yellow-Rattle' in the > UK) nor *R.glaber* recorded > from China. Neither have records for Nepal nor anywhere in the Himalaya > proper, as far as I know. > > I shall see what I or others can come up with. These sub-tropical > locations and associated flora are not familiar > territory for me..... Hopefully someone else can "come to the rescue". > Seems quite distinctive, so someone should > be able to recognise it. > > By the way, two 'Rhinanthus' was included in 'Flora of British India' one > a synonym for *Pedicularis bifida *(Scrophulariaceae) > the other for *Geniospermum elongatum* (Lamiaceae). > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> > *To:* efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com > <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>> > *Cc:* Saroj Kasaju <kasajusa...@gmail.com>; D.S Rawat < > drdsrawat.alpin...@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Monday, 17 October 2016, 8:20 > *Subject:* Fwd: SK99SEP12-1016:ID > > Forwarding again for Id assistance please. > Some earlier relevant feedback: > It was unfortunate that when I went to the spot after a couple of weeks to > get pictures of > the plant there was no trace of any plant . > However, from your hint and comparison of web pictures I guess it could be > *Rhinanthus > minor *L. (accepted name). > Request experts for opinion. > Thank you. > http://www.efloras.org/ florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2& taxon_id=200021241 > <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200021241> > Saroj kasaju > Does not match with the illustration at the given link (of *Rhinanthus > glaber* Lamarck syn: *Rhinanthus major* Ehrhart): > http://www.efloras.org/object_ > page.aspx?object_id=3778& flora_id=2 > <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=3778&flora_id=2> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *Saroj Kasaju* <kasajusa...@gmail.com> > Date: 12 September 2016 at 14:53 > Subject: SK99SEP12-1016:ID > To: "J.M. Garg" <jmga...@gmail.com>, efloraofindia > <indiantreepix@googlegroups. > com <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>> > > > Dear Mr. Garg, > > > Sharing some pictures for ID shot at Gund Bhaktapur Nepal on 11 September > 2016 at 5100 ft. > > Thank you. > > Saroj Kasaju > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com > <indiantreepix+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to indiantreepix@googlegroups.com . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > > ... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send an email to indiantreepix@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
