Thanks for notification that the suggested identification of the Berberis on
Chandragiri Hill, Kathmanduas B.griiffithiana (syn. B.bhutanensis) was from the
senior author of a revision of the genus in Nepal.
Clearly, he is much better placed than anyone to propose an identification. I
do not have ready access tothis revision nor attempted to take a special
interest in the genus in the NW Himalaya, let alonethe E.Himalaya, so am unable
to comment further identification-wise.
There is no mention of the proposed species within 'Flora of Kathmandu Valley'
but that comes as no surprise considering how difficult the genus is.
As to 'Enumeration of the Flowering Plants of Nepal' the plant is listed under
B.bhutanensis - it was known asB.wallichiana var. pallida in FBI. Known from
Nepal to Bhutan & what was Burma @ 2100-3000m.
'Flora of Bhutan' has this plant under B.griffithiana found at the margins of
forests in Bhutan (no records from Sikkim)@ 2440-3200m.
The location, altitude and habitat all tally.
Hopefully, Mr Adhikari will be available to comment on any future postings of
Berberis from Nepal - and perhapsventure his thoughts about any from the
W.Himalaya even if highly tentative, as input from specialists is invaluable.
Plus any thoughts about the Berberis section of eFI.
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Cc: efloraofindia <[email protected]>; Saroj Kasaju
<[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, 23 October 2016, 14:07
Subject: Re: SK126OCT042016:ID
Initial reply was from Mr. Adhikari, who has recently revised the genus in
Nepal."A REVISION OF BERBERIS S.S. (BERBERIDACEAE) IN NEPAL by B. Adhikaria1,
C. A. Pendrya1, R. T. Penningtona1 and R. I. Milnea1a2 a1- Edinburgh Journal of
Botany Edinburgh Journal of Botany / Volume 69 / Issue 03 / November 2012, pp
447-522"
On 15 October 2016 at 18:56, [email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote:
Yet more to say and try to explain about the challenges involved in attempting
to identify Berberis.
Whilst preparing my previous comments I was concentrating upon information
about Nepal/E.Himalaya as the two suggested species are not known from
W.Himalaya.
However, the observations of Jafri (then Herbarium, University of Karachi) who
revised Berberidaceae for 'Flora of Pakistan' are worth sharing here (I have a
copy of this booklet - what is available on the internet on efloraofPakistan is
only a fraction of the original details.
"A difficult genus due to variable nature of its many species, probably
affected by environment and hybridization. Overlapping of characters,
especially in leaves, stem colour, flower and berry size etc. are not lacking
in our several closely related species. Leaf texture, serrations etc, are said
to vary from season to season and with the age of the plant in some of our
species [observation of Parker]. Fruits may be red when immature but turn black
or dark-blue with maturity. Gregarious or sporadic distribution, evergreen or
deciduous habit, fruit colour etc. cannot be ascertained from a dried herbarium
specimen unless comprehensive fielkd notes are provided. Among our species...
need experimental studies. Ahrendt made comprehensive studies on the genus in
several cases but he had very few specimens from our area. No doubt he
compared herbarium specimens and any living ones grown at Kew and other places
but still some of our species, described by him, are based on a single
specimen. From the small number of herbarium specimens at my disposal, I find
quite a number of intergrading forms between some of the species. Looking into
the range of variation the descriptions provided by Ahrendt for some of our
species are quite inadequate".
May I add that much of what he said applies to many different genera in the
Himalaya. Previous authors often had few, often poor quality specimens,
frequently with no field notes at all. I feel I must comment that the quality
of collection of pressed specimens for India herbaria needs to improve for all
genera. This has resulted often in scrappy, poorly pressed & dried specimens,
usually only a single one for smaller specimens when several should have been
gathered to fill a herbarium sheet they would ultimately be attached to. And
field notes are generally exceedingly poor to non-existent. This results in
the reference material in Indian herbaria frequently being inadequate. Even if
correctly identified, only having such scraps means it is very difficult to
then compare with fresh material. I return to my approach to plant
identification being akin to detective work - the fewer clues/supporting
evidence, the harder the task, making it more difficult to have confidence in
the ultimate objective of accurate and reliable identifications.
Modern-day digital cameras have the potential to help transform the situation
provided they are utilised methodically and carefully, with quality close-ups
of the essential parts of the plant. The traditional photos (in pre-digital
days) of 1 at most two general images of the "pretty bits" are often inadequate
to identify a plant with confidence - which is why most herbarium taxonomists
declined the opportunity to attempt to identify plants from slides in the
1980s-1990s. Nowadays, certain specialists rightly consider pressed specimens
remain essential but these combined with the best of what digital photography
can offer is a way forward. Likewise their is a need for specialists to
observe living material (whether in the wild or cultivation). As I shall
continue to repeat the Nagoya Protocol (no matter its good intentions) will
damage the study of plants and efforts to reliably identify plants.
AND UNLESS ONE CAN RELIABLY IDENTIFY PLANTS, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO CORRECTLY
ASSESS THEIR RARITY OR ABUNDANCE IN THE WILD - surely what limited resources
exist SHOULD be focussed on the plant species which are GENUINELY rare. Not
those which are claimed to be 'Rare & Endangered' when they are not.......
One of the many reasons this google group and the efforts of Mr Garg should be
actively supported is the objective of improving the level and consistency of
identification of Indian plants. The involvement of both those who hold
professional positions in the field of botany (not all of them are involved
directly in plant identification), those with botanical training (though
holding a degree in botany, as was the case in the UK where nowadays no
traditional botany degree courses exist, was never a guarantee one knew how to
identify plants) combined with interested amateurs can achieve much. In the UK
we have a fine tradition, through the BSBI (now the Botanical Society of
Britain and Ireland) of a vast amount of field studies have been undertaken
through a combination of professionals and amateurs (many of whom were of
professional standard).
I draw another comparison with the UK. If someone goes for a walk on a Sunday
afternoon admiring the wild flowers they come across and casually identify
them, it does not really matter, whether or not the are correctly named. But
if any type of survey is undertaken or the identifications are used in any sort
of printed or nowadays other means of publication, it really does. Too many
data-bases (the world over) are being ruined by incorrectly identified records.
On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 at 3:23:23 PM UTC+1, Saroj Kumar Kasaju wrote:
Dear Members,
Sharing some pictures for ID shot at the Chandragiri Hill Kathmandu on 19
September 2016 at 8200 ft.
Could it be
|
| Berberis griffithiana var. pallida (J. D. Hooker & Thomson) D. F. Chamberlain
& C. M. Hu |
|
syn:
|
| Berberis bhutanensis Ahrendt (synonym)
|
|
The plant is tall about 15 ft in height or more.
Thank you.
--
With regards,
J.M.Garg'Creating awareness of IndianFlora & Fauna'Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow
Awards 2014 for efloraofindia.
For identification,learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please
visit/ joinour EfloraofindiaGoogle e-group (largestin the world- around 2700
members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) orEfloraofindia website (with a species
database of more than11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). The whole world uses my
Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of
Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can
also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each
image.Also author of 'APhotoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of
India'.
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