Chadwell Ji In my mail I mentioned that- *The plant here is a cultivated specimen and if the records of provenance are faithful (as I think they are) it should be G. cerastioides only*. I was referring to the original source of seeds which you have mentioned as Kullu area. So if the seeds were collected from Kullu are the species must be G.cerastioides as no other similar species is known there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr D.S. Rawat Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA *eflorapantnagar* <https://sites.google.com/site/eflorapantnagar/home> displaying wild flora of Pantnagar On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 1:10 AM, C CHADWELL <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Dr Rawat. > > *You mention records of provenance? Is there a site for plants grown at > NYBG and their provenance?* > Whilst being shown "behind-the-scenes" I got a quick look at old notebooks > for plant introductions > pre-WW2 but did not check anything for G.cerastioides, so presumably this > may well be widely cultivated > in North America. Many plants in cultivation in N.US originated from > nurseries, sometimes seed exchanges > in the UK. > > The UK Royal Horticultural Society has references which say when a plant > was first thought to be introduced into > cultivation but that tends to be the first introduction to places like Kew > or through the Royal Horticultural Society itself. > There are often one-off introductions as well, sometimes earlier. > Britisher (and other European) visitors to the foothills of the > Himalaya did, on occasion gather seeds of local plants and took back to > the UK in addition to introductions by formal expeditions. > > G.cerastioides being common on mineral soils in Kashmir @ 2400-3900m could > easily have been spotted by visitors. I have to say > I personally did not pay much attention to this plant during my visits to > Kashmir in the 1980s. My attention was only drawn to it > on the Rohtang in Himachal Pradesh by others. Never found it especially > 'ornamental' to my eye but "beauty is very much in the eye of > the beholder". > > As for other species of Gypsophila in the Himalaya. Stewart lists 9 > species from Pakistan and Kashmir, though most of these were from > S.Pakistan or probably reduced to synonyms of existing species. I have not > checked. > > I am in agreement that G.sedifolia is a completely different plant to > G.cerastioides. Dickore & Klimes list the former but not the latter, > in their check-list for Ladakh (2005). > > It would be more accurate to say that G.sedifolia is recorded from > N.Pakistan (Chitral) and Ladakh (which is of course part of the Indian > State of J&K but as the plant has no records for Kashmir Valley, this > distinction is meaningful - the species appears very much one of the > borderlands of > Western Tibet). Stewart gives an altitudinal range of 2700-3900m. Koelz > collected it in Zanskar. > > You are right that Gypsophila *cerastioides is the correct spelling.* > The authors of 'Flora of Lahaul-Spiti' are incorrect is using G.cerastoides > - > they found G.cerastioides on moist slopes at Gramphoo which sounds > feasible as I have seen the plant on the Rohtang itself - it is unlikely > that this species occurs in the drier parts of Lahaul. > > *But my query was more to do with whether the plant at the NYBG was > firstly, definitely a Gypsophila and then not so much a different species > originating in the Himalaya but if any other members of the genus from > other parts of the world are of similar appearance to G.cerastioides? And > thus was the specimen at NYBG one of these? 'The Plant List' accepts 151 > species for this genus - which makes it large and complicated!* > > Stewart mentions G.paniculata as a garden plant in Pakistan, which he knew > as 'Baby's Breath' (a native of Europe) widely used as a Florist plant - > apparently widely cultivated in Peru. > > *When checking the identity of plants in the wild, one usually can limit > the possibilities to those species previously recorded from the region > concerned. I have found plants in cultivation to OFTEN be misidentified. > In the case of specimens labelled as belonging to species which occur in > the Himalaya, my informal research into examples from specialist nurseries, > commercial seed companies, seed exchanges and even some botanic garden > Index Semina, that AT LEAST 50% were misidentified.* > > Few keep good records of the provenance of introductions into cultivation > (this applies to botanic gardens) and rapidly (often within years, > or certainly after decades where the specimen originated is often lost). > I am not speaking of examples of hybridisation. > > With large genera with species from many different parts of the world, it > can be difficult to work out the correct identification. Even when they > are correctly identified, plants in cultivation do not always match its > general appearance in the wild. This is particularly true of higher > alpines, which IF they can be grown at all (many such species represent a > challenge to even the most skilled and dedicated growers), often not taking > kindly to warmer, softer conditions at sea-level in another country, can > end up not "true-to-type", being "leggy and unattractive". > > Take the genus Cremanthodium (found in the Himalaya and SW China) as an > example. Most species have proven a challenge for more than a century. > The majority are virtually impossible to flower in the UK, whilst some > growers in arctic Norway have succeeded with them - though I should add > this is not just about low minimum temperatures; other considerations like > day-length and light intensity may come into play? > > Attempts at "Ex-Situ" Conservation of higher alpine species in the Indian > Himalaya are in most cases doomed to fail, if attempts are made to grow > specimens dug up at say 3600-4000m and then transported down thousands of > feet to face comparatively high temperatures in a drier environment, which > is the case for most botanic gardens. Unless specialist, > environment-controlled, 'alpine-houses' exist, with highly skilled > "hands-on" horticulturists looking after them, said species stand little > chance of surviving long. And even if higher elevation 'stations' of > botanical gardens are established it would be much better if attempts to > grow them stemmed from seed, not digging up live plants. This would be > more eco-friendly, especially if said species really were 'Rare & > Endangered' and stand a greater chance of success, as in general, plants > adapt better > from seed. In some cases, "cuttings" might fare better and one is living > the parent plants alive. Though, whichever propagation method is > involved, skilled, dedicated horticulturalists are required to work at such > 'stations'. > > Bernard Coventry (author of 'Wild Flowers of Kashmir') rented a hut at > Gulmarg (like many Britishers did) conducted trials on 'alpine' Kashmir > species whilst Conservator of Forests - during late 1920s and early 1930s, > successfully flowering quite a number. Few of these species would survive > long in Srinagar. > > At the New York Botanic Garden (New York experiences seriously low winter > temperatures and snow), they have a small traditional 'alpine house' which > is not state-of-the-art environment-controlled but does have an alarm > system in case the temperature rises above a certain point. New York > experiences unpleasantly hot summers. > > I saw no Himalayan species from higher elevations growing in the New York > Botanic Garden rockery. > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* D.S Rawat <[email protected]> > *To:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *Cc:* efloraofindia <[email protected]>; C CHADWELL < > [email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 6 December 2016, 7:14 > *Subject:* Re: Gypsophila cerastioides in the New York Botanical Garden > > To me this species is *G. cerastioides* D.Don > The plant here is a cultivated specimen and if the records of provenance > are faithful (as I think they are) it should be *G. cerastioides* only. > Two species of *Gypsophila* are known in Western Himalaya- *G. > cerastioides* and *G. sedifolia* Kurz. > *G. sedifolia* (=*G. tibetica*) is quite different with linear leaves, > smaller flowers and compact inflorescence (Herb specimen at Kew- > http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000725779). It is > known from Kashmir, above 2700m *vide* Majumdar (1993). > *G. ceratioides* D.Don is widely distributed from Pakistan to Arunachal > Pradesh and occurs above 2600m. It is quite variable also and I have seen > one population in North Garhwal with petals equal to sepals. > David Don while describing the species used specific epithet as ‘ > *cerastioides*’ but The Plant List 2013 show ‘*cerastoides*’ which I > think is incorrect. > > DSRawat Pantnagar > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------------ > Dr D.S. Rawat > Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & > Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA > *eflorapantnagar* <https://sites.google.com/site/eflorapantnagar/home> > displaying wild flora of Pantnagar > > On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:04 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Forwarding again for validation please. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *C CHADWELL* <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com > <[email protected]>> > Date: 23 November 2016 at 01:08 > Subject: Gypsophila cerastioides in the New York Botanical Garden > To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]> > > > Have noticed recent posts re: Dr Rawat identifying a specimen from > Narkanda as > Gypsophila cerastioides. > > Came across this plant growing in the rockery of the New York Botanical > Garden, the Bronx. > > Do members considered it has been correctly labelled? > > I was on a lecture tour (mostly to North American Rock Garden Society > chapters) which provided > the opportunity for me to spend some time in the herbaria of the New York > Botanical Garden (when > speaking to the Manhattan Chapter) and Ann Arbor, Michigan (when speaking > to the Great Lakes > Chapter, NARGS and gave a seminar at the University about the 'Himalayan > Travels of Walter Koelz' > who with Thakur Rup Chand from Lahoul and their local collectors made > extensive collections in the > NW Himalaya including Kulu Valley, Lahoul & Ladakh in the 1930s; Koelz was > a zoologist engaged by > Russian NIcholas Roerich for the Urusvati Institute at Naggar, Kulu Valley > and pressed a Kohli Memorial > Gold Medal to the Herbarium, see: https://sites.google.com/a/shp > a.org.uk/main/kohli-memorial- gold-medals > <https://sites.google.com/a/shpa.org.uk/main/kohli-memorial-gold-medals> > (scroll > down to 2011). > > Duplicate sets of pressed specimens collected for Roerich went to Ann > Arbor and the New York Botanical Garden, > where they were subsequently identified and labelled by Dr Ralph Stewart > after he retired from being Principal of > the Gordon College, Rawalpindi. Stewart, whilst working in Pakistan > regularly visited the New York Botanic Garden > Herbarium. > > *The best quality set of pressed specimens (with good field notes) I know > of the flora of upper Kulu Valley and* > *Lahoul anywhere in the world are at Ann Arbor, Michigan - far better than > Kew or the Natural History Museum in* > *London. What a shame that the duplicate set of these lies, abandoned > for 80 years "behind-the-scenes" at the* > *Urusvati Institute - no doubt many of the thousands of specimens have > rotted away or become infested by insects.* > *What a waste of such a hard-won resource. I have tried, on 3 occasions, > to gain access to what is left of the * > *specimens to undertake an initial assessment but have not been permitted > entry......* > > *This saddens me. Those is a senior position should have done something > about it decades ago!* > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
