Dear Dr Rawat
Thanks for confirmation that this represents a new record for Uttarakhand and
acknowledging my input. I have few references for this region.
Yes, voucher pressed specimens are required, ideally gathered in triplicate.
One for whichever Institution the botanist whoundertakes the collection is
from, a second for one of the national herbaria in India and one to be sent to
professor Richards forfurther verification (which he would subsequently deposit
in one of the UK's national herbaria) - on the assumption the populationsize is
sufficient to allow this without damaging it.
May I request that several individual specimens (2 or 3 would probably be
sufficient in this case) are gathered for each 'sample' i.e. sufficient to fill
a typical herbarium sheet, rather than just a single specimen, as is often the
case these days illustrating any obvious variant within the colony. Relying
too heavily on single specimens especially if they are atypical can create
problems/confusion amongst taxonomists, as you know.
I am sure you will ensure a good set of digital close-ups of foliage (both
upper and lower surface), petals (front and back), calyces,flower stalks etc.
as well as habit and habitat shots are taken to accompany the pressed specimens
plus exhaustive field notes. I mention this not suggesting you do not know
this already but to explain what is involved to members less familiar with such
matters. Such images and information represent supporting evidence and will
enable others to inspect similar habitat and when companion species are noted,
to make a special effort to look out for this Primula incl. when it is not in
flower (a time when plants can be overlooked especially if foliage dies-down.
This just goes to show the potential this google group has to contribute to
knowledge of flora in the Indian Himalaya and India as a whole.
Let us hope this species can be found in other locations in Uttarakhand in the
years to come (certainly not in higher or drier habitats) - it is very unlikely
to occur in Himachal Pradesh and even more so in Kashmir but once those who
explore and photograph them know what to look out for (get their eye in), in
promising habitats at suitable altitudes, more records are likely. Just
because this represents the first record it does not imply there are not others
or it is that the species is rare in Uttarakhand. It might be but nobody can
say at this stage. I recollect a petiolarid under waterfalls during my first
visit to Nepal in 1990 which I only subsequently realised was Primula boothii
subspecies autumnalis.
This should be only the first (and second bearing in mind the other Primula
that Professor Richards has identified) of many more species, subspecies and
varieties belonging to lots of different genera, this group helps to locate.
High quality digital photography, good field botany locating less familiar
plants and then suitable botanical input from assorted members with quality
pressed voucher specimens gathered by expert field botanists to be collected on
behalf of regional institutions with duplicate specimen sent nationally and
internationally will round things off. No doubt with publication of the record
at some point - though best not to rush things.
This all represents good international collaboration which benefits Indian
botany. Right from my first visit to India back in 1980, I have repeatedly
said, TAKE ADVANTAGE of WILLINGNESS of FOREIGN BOTANISTS and PLANT ENTHUSIASTS
to help with the study of Himalayan flora. This is to the benefit of all
concerned and shows how this google group can work well together, setting an
example for others to follow.
I recently posted images of Primula boothii subspecies autumnalis taken by my
eldest son in Nepal for comparative purposes.
Professor Richards has outlined the characteristics to look out for in
P.boothii, to separate them from P.petiolaris and P.gracilipes.
I hope that I can remain in a position to assist this group and the group
welcomes my inputs. My comments, questions, challenges,corrections and
constructive criticisms are well worth "putting up with" and my underlying
good-intentions, recognised.
As the late outstanding horticulturist & conservationist, himself a fine
field-botanist, Prem Nath Kohli, would say, "India will gain".IF what I am
doing is fully embraced.....
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: D.S Rawat <[email protected]>
To: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
Cc: C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia
<[email protected]>; Satish Phadke <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, 10 December 2016, 4:49
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fwd: [efloraofindia:258766] Re: Plumbaginaceae, Primulaceae
& Myrsinaceae Fortnight 1-14June2014: Primula petiolaris(?) from
Uttarakhand_DSR_22
It is indeed an addition to the Primula species in Uttarakhand as it is not
mentioned in the checklist of Uniyal et al. 2007 [Flowering Plants of
Uttarakhand (A Checklist)].
And it clearly represents the case of wrong identification in the past.
It all now will result in to one another visit to the location for collecting
specimens in the next spring.
Thank you Chadwell Ji, Prof. Richards and Garg Ji to reaching to the conclusive
ID.
DSRawat Pantnagar
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr D.S. RawatDepartment of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of
Agriculture & Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIAeflorapantnagar
displaying wild flora of Pantnagar
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 5:23 AM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji.It is all because you requested that we take his
opinion in this matter.
On 9 December 2016 at 22:21, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com>
wrote:
It is so helpful to receive input from those with the maximum
knowledge/familiarity with a genus, especiallyfor examples we have been
uncertain about.
Naturally, it is of special interest to members of this group, when a species,
subspecies or variety has their rangeextended into Indian territory or
recognised only in Indian territory.
As far as I know, Richards 'determination' (not sure if he would count it as
such) for this plant from Munsyari means this represents the first record of
Primula boothii in Uttarakhand, as is the case for Primula gracilipes from Gori
Valley.
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
To: efloraofindia <[email protected] m>
Cc: D.S Rawat <[email protected]> ; Satish Phadke
<[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2016, 12:20
Subject: Fwd: Fwd: [efloraofindia:256995] Re: Plumbaginaceae, Primulaceae &
Myrsinaceae Fortnight 1-14June2014: Primula petiolaris(?) from
Uttarakhand_DSR_22
Thanks a lot, Richards ji.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: JOHN RICHARDS
Date: 9 December 2016 at 15:36
Subject: Re: Fwd: [efloraofindia:256995] Re: Plumbaginaceae, Primulaceae &
Myrsinaceae Fortnight 1-14June2014: Primula petiolaris(?) from
Uttarakhand_DSR_22
To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]>
Dear Mr Garg,Many thanks for sending these images. They are of P. boothii, not
P. petiolaris or P. gracilipes. Both the former species have much shorter
flower stems. For P. boothii please note the following characters:no farinalong
slender usually reddish flower stemscalyx which is angled, due to each sepal
being keeled (like a house roof)often (not always) red colour in leaf veins
etcThis is a forest species from Annapurna eastwards to west Bhutan. Most
flower in April, but there is an autumn flowering subspecies ssp. autumnalis,
also a stoloniferous ssp. repens.
John Richards
On Friday, 9 December 2016, 5:46, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi, Richards ji,May I request you to pl. help in the matter as requested by
Chris Chadwell ji.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
Date: 6 December 2016 at 13:02
Subject: Fwd: [efloraofindia:256995] Re: Plumbaginaceae, Primulaceae &
Myrsinaceae Fortnight 1-14June2014: Primula petiolaris(?) from
Uttarakhand_DSR_22
To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com>
Cc: "D.S Rawat" <[email protected]>
Forwarding again for Id assistance please.Some earlier relevant feedback:
| Thanks for sending additional images. I will quote further from 'Primula'
which states that few species have been so misunderstood as Primula petiolaris.
As the earliest described species in the section it was used as a dustbin
during the 19th century, most petiolarids being assigned to it. As the section
became better understood, most of these were split off but so few specimens of
the type plant existed that they were misinterpreted.
Unfortunately, Wallich's type specimen was collected in the summer with a few
off-season flowers, so it has summer leaves with long petioles untypical of the
usual flowering conditions (hence the name of this species, and indeed the
section). Further it was not realized that flowers of pink petiolarids dry
blue. Many 19th Century pressed specimens had few, if any field notes - a
situation which, regrettably has continued with too many Indian botanists
gathering scrappy, often poor pressed specimens and almost no field notes (such
as flower colour) to make attempts to reliable identify more difficult to name
primulas (and other genera) that much harder (to impossible).
Anyhow, according to Richards the plant photographed above Munsyari is not
P.petiolaris. It is a shame that the calyces photographed are not in focus.
They are supposed to be tightly clasps, blunter lobes. There is a total
absence of meal plus cup-shaped flowers, tight, crisped rosette at flowering
with almost stem-less flowers. It is also smaller.
The authors of Flora of Bhutan speak of differences between forms of
P.petiolaris in Bhutan and those in Nepal. It may well be forms in Uttarkhand
are somewhat different as well, so their comments as to Bhutanese and Sikkimese
specimens might not apply further West?
IF this plant is P.gracilipes then it has not been recorded from what was
Kumaon previously. As the differences have been so poorly understood, the old
records are probably somewhat meaningless and few in number.
As Richards thinks P.gracilipes could be considered a subspecies of
P.petiolaris, his opinion, should, for the present, rank the highest. It would
be helpful if someone could forward these images and accompanying information
to him, for his thoughts.
In the mean time, how about calling these plants Primula petiolaris sensu lato
or Primula petiolaris subspecies gracilipes? Or Primula sp. aff. petiolaris?
This indicates the uncertainty.
If group members can send in more good-quality images of petiolarids (and all
other primulas for that making) with close-up, in focus images of flowers
(upper and lower surface of petals, sepals, stalks, upper and lower leaf
surfaces) plus good field notes, then this will help us clarify the situation.
Without more images showing all the necessary characteristics of a number of
other collections, it is impossible to add much to the uncertainty which seems
to remain.
So, I hope group members are inspired to get up into the mountains to look for
Primulas - in the case of the petiolarids, they are not found at extreme
altitudes or terrain, so most members should be able to undertake the required
treks/walks.
Look forward to lots of Primula images in 2017.
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
|
| |
| |
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: D.S Rawat <[email protected]>
Date: 18 November 2016 at 15:12
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:256995] Re: Plumbaginaceae, Primulaceae &
Myrsinaceae Fortnight 1-14June2014: Primula petiolaris(?) from
Uttarakhand_DSR_22
To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com>
Cc: chrischadwell261@btinternet. com, [email protected]
Attaching more images as desired.
This primula was shot above Munsyari (Pithoragarh District, Kumaon,
Uttarakhand) at an elevation of about 2600-2700m. It was growing on a moist
vertical mossy slope in second fortnight of March 2013. As I understand with
increasing spring temperature the habitat was becoming drier. Some tetramerous
flowers are also visible (marked in image-2).
DSRawat Pantnagar
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 2:24:32 PM UTC+5:30, JM Garg wrote:
Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji, for looking at all posts in this genera in
efi.Catalogue of life states Primula petiolaris Wall. to be an accepted name.
May I request Rawat ji to pl. post other images.
On 10 November 2016 at 05:05, [email protected] m
<[email protected] om> wrote:
I am unsure about this. Richards observes that few species have been so
misunderstood as Primula petiolaris Wallich.
I see that it is no longer an accepted number in 'The Plant List'. So what has
replaced it? Primula gracilipes perhaps?
It is still on the 'Primula World' site but the only images are of cultivated
plants and some of these could easily be hybrids.
Cannot say the image shot in Uttarakhand matches the images on the above site.
According to Richards it is found in Nepal & Sikkim plus two early records from
Kumaon. Flowers of Himalaya says Uttaranachal to Sikkim @ 2400-3600m.
Richards says throughout Nepal sometimes growing and hybridising with Primula
gracilipes.
I am uncertain as to the differences between P.petiolaris and P.gracilipes.
They are closely related. Richards considers the latter might well be
considered a subspecies of the former! Differing in the almost stemless (those
in the photo do have stalks), tightly clasped blunter sepal-lobes (which cannot
be observed in the image) and the total absence of meal - though sometimes meal
is not prominent.
Is there anyone who can comment with authority? And tell us the correct
nomenclature/taxonomic treatment?
Flowers of the Himalaya say that Primula gracilipes is the most frequent
petiolarid Primula in Bhutan (and Sikkim). They consider P,petiolaris much
smaller and the two may be CONSPECIFIC i.e. being the same species!
On Thursday, June 12, 2014 at 9:31:07 AM UTC+1, D.S Rawat wrote:
This Primulaalso shot in Munsyari area Uttarakhand resembles to Primula
petiolaris Wallich with its irregularly toothed petals.Validation (orotherwise)
is requested.
Dr D.S.RawatDepartment of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of
Agriculture & Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA
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For identification,learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please
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also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each
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India'.
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With regards,
J.M.Garg'Creating awareness of IndianFlora & Fauna'Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow
Awards 2014 for efloraofindia.
For identification,learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please
visit/ joinour EfloraofindiaGoogle e-group (largestin the world- around 2700
members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) orEfloraofindia website (with a species
database of more than11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). The whole world uses my
Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of
Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can
also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each
image.Also author of 'APhotoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of
India'.
--
With regards,
J.M.Garg'Creating awareness of IndianFlora & Fauna'Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow
Awards 2014 for efloraofindia.
For identification,learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please
visit/ joinour EfloraofindiaGoogle e-group (largestin the world- around 2700
members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) orEfloraofindia website (with a species
database of more than11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). The whole world uses my
Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of
Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can
also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each
image.Also author of 'APhotoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of
India'.
--
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Awards 2014 for efloraofindia.
For identification,learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please
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Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of
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