Thanks, Chadwell ji. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: C CHADWELL <[email protected]> Date: 9 February 2017 at 17:32 Subject: Re: Dactylorhiza umbrosa was not FIRST found in 2012 near Vishensar Lake, Kashmir but by Chris Chadwell's team in Ladakh in 1980! To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]>
Dear Pankaj I replied to your second e-mail first. So you consider the plants found at Krishensar Lake are probably D.hatagirea rather than D.umbrosa. I suspect with such a difficult genus, there is scope for differences of taxonomic treatment/opinion even amongst those with specialist knowledge. For others, there is MUCH potential for misidentification and confusion. ALL botanists, in ALL countries, really SHOULD contact specialists (when they exist) for their opinions. I realise not all those with specialist knowledge are bothered to help and the authorities in SOME countries can DISCOURAGE contact between Institutions within those countries, let alone abroad. This is a SERIOUS problem. Unfortunately, I did not have a camera capable of taking plants photos in 1980, so personally have no images of the specimens collected in Ladakh that year. I have not been in touch with the person on my team who did take some photos (do not know if that included the orchid but would think so) since then! The priority was gathering quality specimens and detailed field notes - NOT photographs at that time. No idea how to contact them nowadays - being a female, she probably married and goes by her husband's surname..... She had a common Christian and Surname, so this makes it even harder. I would certainly be delighted IF I can re-establish contact and find it of interest/use to view scanned in images of ALL specimens collected during the University Expedition - with a view to posting these to add further species to the efI data-base. It could also be that staff at Kew have revised their determination of the sheet (or visiting orchid specialists have), 'relegating' it to D.hatagirea? It is worth repeating Dr Stewart's comments about D.hatagirea, "After going through the rich material of this taxon at Kew with Mr Peter Hunt (presumably Kew's Orchid specialist at the time) we came to the conclusion that this is a variable complex and that Soo's segregates could not be maintained". I suspect also, that unless photos show close-up detail of the floral parts, it may not always be possible for you (or anyone else) to say with CERTAINTY whether the plant photographed belongs to a particular taxon. Best Wishes, Chris Chadwell 81 Parlaunt Road SLOUGH SL3 8BE UK www.shpa.org.uk ------------------------------ *From:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> *To:* Dr. Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> *Cc:* [email protected]; efloraofindia < [email protected]> *Sent:* Thursday, 9 February 2017, 3:16 *Subject:* Re: Dactylorhiza umbrosa was not FIRST found in 2012 near Vishensar Lake, Kashmir but by Chris Chadwell's team in Ladakh in 1980! Thanks, Pankaj ji On 9 Feb 2017 6:48 a.m., "Pankaj Kumar" <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Sir I have already seen this article before and it is not surprising that the plant in Saphoo et al (2016) is wrongly identified and it is infact Dactylorhiza hatagirea. Very peculiar labellum. I have not seen the Dactylorhiza umbrosa myself but if it is in Pakistan (Chitral) till Iraq, then obviously not a big deal if it can be found in India, but so far I have not seen the live plants myself. At one point I also thought that umbrosa and hatagirea should be same as hatagirea is very widespread and even found at broad elevation range. But as I never had specimen I was unable to conclude. Orchids of Russia - Vakhrameeva et al. (2008) didnt include Pakistan as the distribution range for this, but Orchids of Northwest Himalaya - Deva and Naithani (1986) included. I have not see your pics but would love to have a look. Thanks and regards Pankaj On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:17 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: Thanks, Chadwell ji ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "C CHADWELL" <[email protected] om <[email protected]>> Date: 7 Feb 2017 12:38 p.m. Subject: Dactylorhiza umbrosa was not FIRST found in 2012 near Vishensar Lake, Kashmir but by Chris Chadwell's team in Ladakh in 1980! To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected]> Cc: I am currently preparing a posting about New Records for Ladakh found during the University of Southampton Expedition to Ladakh in 1980 when I was team-leading of the botanical project which was a botanical survey of the Suru Valley. We collected a Marsh Orchid: Dactylorhiza umbrosa (Kar. et Kir.) our collection number SULE 16 - which was deposited in the herbarium of the University of Kashmir. *This was 32 years before 2012... According to the article it represents an ADDITION TO THE FLORA OF INDIA....* Duplicate specimens went to Kew; triplicate specimens to University of Southampton. See: https://www.researchgate.net/p ublication/304498649_Dactylorh iza_umbrosa_Kar_Kir_Nevski_Orc hidaceae_an_addition_to_flora_ of_India_from_Kashmir_Himalaya <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304498649_Dactylorhiza_umbrosa_Kar_Kir_Nevski_Orchidaceae_an_addition_to_flora_of_India_from_Kashmir_Himalaya> My team collected this at Panichar, 3300m, grassy verge between Chalang Nullah and irrigation channel; wet sandy loam in marshy area with Trifolium, Euphrasia, grasses. To 35cm, deep mauve with purple markings on lower petals; occasionally white forms. *I noted in the Report of the Expedition that Dactylorhiza umbrosa was considered by some authors to be only part of the Dactylorhiza hatagirea complex. * *Stewart in his Annotated Catalogue lists both D.hatagirea and D.umbrosa (collected in Chitral) observing it was probably distinct but part of the D.hatagirea complex.* *In my recent postings about Dactylorhiza I had assumed our 1980 collection was part of this complex but as D.umbrosa appears to be* *an accepted name and the specimens were identified at Kew one presumably can trust their determination.* *Thus, it appears, my team found this orchid for the first time in Indian territory back in 1980.* *I would naturally welcome the thoughts of our orchid specialist.* Best Wishes, Chris Chadwell 81 Parlaunt Road SLOUGH SL3 8BE UK www.shpa.org.uk -- ****************************** ****************************** ****************************** **************************** *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* *Office*: Conservation Officer Orchid Conservation Section Flora Conservation Department Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. *Residence*: House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. *email*: [email protected]; [email protected] *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 -- With regards, J.M.Garg 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). The whole world uses my Image Resource <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. 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