Dear sir Can you please confirm if you had already identified the plant as Dactylorhiza umbrosa before submitting to KASH? I mean, was it labelled as umbrosa before submission? Thanks and regards Pankaj
On Thursday, February 9, 2017, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks, Chadwell ji. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: C CHADWELL <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > Date: 9 February 2017 at 17:32 > Subject: Re: Dactylorhiza umbrosa was not FIRST found in 2012 near > Vishensar Lake, Kashmir but by Chris Chadwell's team in Ladakh in 1980! > To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > > > Dear Pankaj > > I replied to your second e-mail first. > > So you consider the plants found at Krishensar Lake are probably > D.hatagirea rather than D.umbrosa. > > I suspect with such a difficult genus, there is scope for differences of > taxonomic treatment/opinion even amongst > those with specialist knowledge. For others, there is MUCH potential for > misidentification and confusion. ALL botanists, > in ALL countries, really SHOULD contact specialists (when they exist) for > their opinions. I realise not all those with > specialist knowledge are bothered to help and the authorities in SOME > countries can DISCOURAGE contact between > Institutions within those countries, let alone abroad. This is a SERIOUS > problem. > > Unfortunately, I did not have a camera capable of taking plants photos in > 1980, so personally have no images > of the specimens collected in Ladakh that year. I have not been in touch > with the person on my team who did > take some photos (do not know if that included the orchid but would think > so) since then! The priority was gathering > quality specimens and detailed field notes - NOT photographs at that time. > > No idea how to contact them nowadays - being a female, she probably > married and goes by her husband's surname..... > She had a common Christian and Surname, so this makes it even harder. > > I would certainly be delighted IF I can re-establish contact and find it > of interest/use to view scanned in images of > ALL specimens collected during the University Expedition - with a view to > posting these to add further species to the > efI data-base. > > It could also be that staff at Kew have revised their determination of the > sheet (or visiting orchid specialists have), 'relegating' > it to D.hatagirea? > > It is worth repeating Dr Stewart's comments about D.hatagirea, "After > going through the rich material of this taxon at Kew with Mr Peter Hunt > (presumably Kew's Orchid specialist at the time) we came to the conclusion > that this is a variable complex and that Soo's segregates could not be > maintained". > > I suspect also, that unless photos show close-up detail of the floral > parts, it may not always be possible for you (or anyone else) to say > with CERTAINTY whether the plant photographed belongs to a particular > taxon. > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* J.M. Garg <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > *To:* Dr. Pankaj Kumar <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > *Cc:* [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>; > efloraofindia <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > *Sent:* Thursday, 9 February 2017, 3:16 > *Subject:* Re: Dactylorhiza umbrosa was not FIRST found in 2012 near > Vishensar Lake, Kashmir but by Chris Chadwell's team in Ladakh in 1980! > > Thanks, Pankaj ji > > On 9 Feb 2017 6:48 a.m., "Pankaj Kumar" <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > > Dear Sir > I have already seen this article before and it is not surprising that the > plant in Saphoo et al (2016) is wrongly identified and it is infact > Dactylorhiza hatagirea. Very peculiar labellum. > I have not seen the Dactylorhiza umbrosa myself but if it is in Pakistan > (Chitral) till Iraq, then obviously not a big deal if it can be found in > India, but so far I have not seen the live plants myself. At one point I > also thought that umbrosa and hatagirea should be same as hatagirea is very > widespread and even found at broad elevation range. But as I never had > specimen I was unable to conclude. > Orchids of Russia - Vakhrameeva et al. (2008) didnt include Pakistan as > the distribution range for this, but Orchids of Northwest Himalaya - Deva > and Naithani (1986) included. > I have not see your pics but would love to have a look. > Thanks and regards > Pankaj > > > > On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:17 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > > Thanks, Chadwell ji > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "C CHADWELL" <[email protected] om > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > Date: 7 Feb 2017 12:38 p.m. > Subject: Dactylorhiza umbrosa was not FIRST found in 2012 near Vishensar > Lake, Kashmir but by Chris Chadwell's team in Ladakh in 1980! > To: "J.M. Garg" <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > Cc: > > I am currently preparing a posting about New Records for Ladakh found > during the University of Southampton Expedition to Ladakh in 1980 when I > was team-leading of the botanical project which was a botanical survey of > the Suru Valley. > > We collected a Marsh Orchid: Dactylorhiza umbrosa (Kar. et Kir.) our > collection number SULE 16 - which was deposited in the herbarium of the > University of Kashmir. *This was 32 years before 2012... According to > the article it represents an ADDITION TO THE FLORA OF INDIA....* > Duplicate specimens went to Kew; triplicate specimens to University of > Southampton. > > See: https://www.researchgate.net/p ublication/304498649_Dactylorh > iza_umbrosa_Kar_Kir_Nevski_Orc hidaceae_an_addition_to_flora_ > of_India_from_Kashmir_Himalaya > <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304498649_Dactylorhiza_umbrosa_Kar_Kir_Nevski_Orchidaceae_an_addition_to_flora_of_India_from_Kashmir_Himalaya> > > > My team collected this at Panichar, 3300m, grassy verge between Chalang > Nullah and irrigation channel; wet sandy loam in marshy area with > Trifolium, Euphrasia, grasses. To 35cm, deep mauve with purple markings on > lower petals; occasionally white forms. > > *I noted in the Report of the Expedition that Dactylorhiza umbrosa was > considered by some authors to be only part of the Dactylorhiza hatagirea > complex. * > > *Stewart in his Annotated Catalogue lists both D.hatagirea and D.umbrosa > (collected in Chitral) observing it was probably distinct but part of the > D.hatagirea complex.* > > *In my recent postings about Dactylorhiza I had assumed our 1980 > collection was part of this complex but as D.umbrosa appears to be* > *an accepted name and the specimens were identified at Kew one presumably > can trust their determination.* > > *Thus, it appears, my team found this orchid for the first time in Indian > territory back in 1980.* > > *I would naturally welcome the thoughts of our orchid specialist.* > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > > -- > ****************************** ****************************** > ****************************** **************************** > *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. > *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* > > *Office*: > > Conservation Officer > > Orchid Conservation Section > > Flora Conservation Department > > Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation > Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. > > *Residence*: > House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen > Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. > *email*: [email protected] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>; > [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 > (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 > > > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > -- ****************************************************** **************************************************************** *Pankaj Kumar*, Ph.D. *IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia* *Office*: Conservation Officer Orchid Conservation Section Flora Conservation Department Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. *Residence*: House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo Tsuen Lam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong. *email*: [email protected]; [email protected] *Phone*: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile); *Fax*: +852 2483 7194 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. 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