Hi, Ushadi, I have no doubt about what I have stated after one day of research and these are based on very reliable documents like efloras and after studying more than 50 posts in efi site.
On Mon 21 Oct, 2019, 10:57 PM ushadi, <microminipho...@gmail.com> wrote: > we need to come to some distuinshing features for practical reasons > > cant find papers thru bing > > may be some taxonomist can help please > Regards > Ushadi > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 7:08 PM Shobha Halwe-Chavda <koa...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Garg ji, >> Great efforts to find the species !!!! For a non-botanist like me leave >> aside species, confirming Genus itself is difficult.So then minute details >> of species is overlooked many a times.I keep forgetting the similarities >> and differences between the species and land in confusion :-). >> Thanks to all the stalwarts from this wonderful group giving guidance and >> tips to me all the time. >> Regards, >> Shobha >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 4:29 PM J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Saroj ji, >>> On going through all the posts in efi site, I find that illustrations >>> given in the above links can be misleading. >>> So what really is the simple thing which we can see in our flowers and >>> that should be the key in photographs ? >>> After studying all details, I find stamen colour is quite convincing. >>> Stamen colour purple in Tarenaya hassleriana >>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/a---l/cl/cleomaceae/tarenaya/cleome-hassleriana> >>> & green in Cleoserrata speciosa >>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/a---l/cl/cleomaceae/cleoserrata/cleome-speciosa> >>> Due to genus keys at Flora of China >>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=10199>, >>> insertion of stamen becomes very important. Stamens are inserted >>> together in a club like stub above the bottom in Tarenaya hassleriana >>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/a---l/cl/cleomaceae/tarenaya/cleome-hassleriana>, >>> while these are inserted in the bottom in Cleoserrata speciosa >>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/a---l/cl/cleomaceae/cleoserrata/cleome-speciosa>. >>> >>> >>> Now I will correct all the posts based on this. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 at 15:49, dr.rakesh Singh <dr.rakeshpsi...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Commendable job, Garg sir ! >>>> >>>> It happens with me ...whenever I see a beautiful flower/plant , I >>>> forget everything botanical . All I see and record is beauty , and miss all >>>> the details . Later on I regret missing all the botanically relevant data . >>>> Sometimes I get to pay a second visit , more often I cannot . >>>> >>>> I am sure it happens with others too . This is the reason inspite of >>>> having plenty of images we falter on decisively identifying at species >>>> level . With inadequate data and more not coming forth , at times I advise >>>> members to stop at Genus and stop guessing species , on facebook . >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 14:16 J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Giving details from Flora of China: >>>>> *Cleoserrata speciosa (Rafinesque) Iltis*: >>>>> Herbs, annual, 0.5-1.5 m tall. Stems simple or sparsely branched, >>>>> fluted, *glabrous or sparsely glandular pubescent*. Petiole 2-12 cm, >>>>> glandular pubescent; *leaflets (3 or)5-9; *leaflet blades narrowly >>>>> lanceolate-elliptic, 6-15 × 1-5 cm, *both surfaces glabrate to >>>>> glandular pubescent*, base attenuate, margin entire or serrulate, *apex >>>>> acuminate*. Inflorescences 15-50 cm but 20-60 cm in fruit, glandular >>>>> pubescent; *bracts narrowly ovate-cordate*, 0.3-1.8 cm. *Pedicel 1-5 >>>>> cm, glabrous*. *Sepals* green, lanceolate, 4-7 × 0.8-1.2 mm, equal, >>>>> distinct, persistent, *glandular pubescent, *base cuneate, margin >>>>> entire. Petals brilliant pink to purple but fading to pink or white by >>>>> second day, rarely initially white, *ovate*, 1.5-4.2 × 0.8-1.1 cm, >>>>> *clawed*. Androgynophore ca. 4 mm at anthesis; stamens 4-8.5 cm; >>>>> anthers 6-10 mm. Pistil 6-10 mm; style 1-1.2 mm. Fruit gynophore 3-8.5 cm, >>>>> with scars from filaments on ca. 1 cm of androgynophore and visible on ca. >>>>> 1/4 of its length; capsule cylindric but irregularly contracted between >>>>> seeds, 6-15 cm × 3-5 mm. Seeds 10-30 per capsule, pale green to brown, >>>>> subspherical, 2.5-3.5 × 1-1.2 mm, tuberculate. Fl. Aug-Nov, fr. Sep-Dec. >>>>> >>>>> *Tarenaya hassleriana (Chodat) Iltis*: >>>>> Herbs, annual, (0.5-)1-1.5 m tall. Stems branched, *glandular >>>>> pubescent*. Stipular spines 1-3 mm. Petiole 2.5-7.5 cm, glandular >>>>> pubescent, with scattered 1-3 mm spines;* leaflets 5 or 7;* leaflet >>>>> blades elliptic to oblanceolate, 2-6(-12) × 1-3 cm, *abaxially >>>>> glandular pubescent, adaxially glandular, *margin >>>>> serrulate-denticulate, *apex acute. *Inflorescences 5-30 cm but 10-80 >>>>> cm in fruit, pedunculate; *bracts ovate,* 1-2.5 cm. *Pedicel 2-4.5 >>>>> cm, glandular pubescent*. *Sepals* green, equal, distinct, >>>>> linear-lanceolate, 5-7 × 0.8-1.3 mm, *reflexed after anthesis*, >>>>> persistent, *glandular pubescent,* margin entire, apex acuminate. >>>>> Petals pink to purple but infrequently white or fading to white by second >>>>> day, *oblong to ovate*, 2-3(-4.5) × 0.8-1.2 cm, *clawed*. *Stamens >>>>> purple*, *3-5 cm; anthers green, *9-10 mm. Pistil 6-10 mm; style ca. >>>>> 0.1 mm. Fruit gynophore 4.5-8 cm; capsule (2.5-)4-8 cm × 2.5-4 mm, in >>>>> straight alignment with gynophore and pedicel, glabrous. Seeds 10-20 per >>>>> capsule, dark brown to black, triangular to subspherical, 1.9-2.1 × >>>>> 1.9-2.1 >>>>> mm, tuberculate. Fl. (Apr-)May-Dec, fr. Jun-Dec. >>>>> >>>>> I find some difference between the two floras. >>>>> >>>>> Flora of China gives the following keys >>>>> Androgynophore 5-10 mm; gynophore 2-6 cm; nodal spines absent- >>>>> *Cleoserrata* >>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=317305> >>>>> Androgynophore absent; gynophore 4.5-8 cm; nodal spines present - >>>>> *Tarenaya* >>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=132319> >>>>> (prickles often present on petiole and major leaf veins). >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 at 13:41, J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Cleoserrata speciosa >>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/a---l/cl/cleomaceae/cleoserrata/cleome-speciosa> >>>>>> and >>>>>> Tarenaya hassleriana >>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/a---l/cl/cleomaceae/tarenaya/cleome-hassleriana> >>>>>> looks >>>>>> quite close in efi site. >>>>>> I tried to find the difference between the two, but unable to get >>>>>> them. >>>>>> As per efi thread >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/6Ng-H16-6Ag>: >>>>>> The sepals are glabrous (*Tarenaya hassleriana*) or glandular hairy >>>>>> (*Cleoserrata >>>>>> speciosa*); >>>>>> But I find this character difficult to see clearly. >>>>>> >>>>>> On further searching, I got both species in Flora of North America as >>>>>> per details below: >>>>>> *Cleoserrata speciosa (Rafinesque) H. H. Iltis*: >>>>>> *Plants* 50-150 cm. *Stems* unbranched or sparsely branched *;* >>>>>> (fluted), *glabrous or sparsely glandular-pubescent.* *Leaves:* >>>>>> petiole 2-12 cm ,(glandular-pubescent); *leaflets 5-9*, blade >>>>>> narrowly lanceolate-elliptic, 6-15 × 1-5 cm, margins entire or >>>>>> serrulate, *apex >>>>>> subobtuse*, *surfaces glabrate to glandular-pubescent.* *Racemes* >>>>>> 15-50 cm (20-60 cm in fruit, *glandular-pubescent*); bracts >>>>>> unifoliate, ovate-cordate, 3-18 mm. *Pedicels* 10-50 mm, (*glabrous*). >>>>>> *Flowers:* *sepals persistent,* green, lanceolate, 4-7 × 0.8-1.2 mm, >>>>>> *glandular-pubescent*; petals usually brilliant pink to purple, >>>>>> fading to pink or white, rarely initially white, *ovate, 15-42 × >>>>>> 8-11 mm, clawed;* *stamens green,* *40-85 mm,* (filaments adnate to >>>>>> gynophore 1/3-1/2 of length); anthers 6-10 mm; gynophore 30-85 mm in >>>>>> fruit >>>>>> (filament scars visible ca. 1/4 of length); ovary 6-10 mm; style 1-1.2 >>>>>> mm. >>>>>> *Capsules* (irregularly contracted between seeds) 60-150 × 3-5 mm. >>>>>> *Seeds* pale green to brown, 2.5-3.5 × 1-1.2 mm, tuberculate. >>>>>> FoC illustration >>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=112393&flora_id=2> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Tarenaya hassleriana (Chodat) H. H. Iltis*: >>>>>> *Plants* (50-)100-200 cm. *Stems* sparsely branched; >>>>>> *glandular-pubescent*. *Leaves:* *stipular spines 1-3 mm; *petiole >>>>>> 2.5-7.5 cm, glandular-pubescent, with scattered spines 1-3 mm; *leaflets >>>>>> 5 or 7*, blade elliptic to oblanceolate, 2-6(-12) × 1-3 cm, margins >>>>>> serrulate-denticulate, *apex acute*, *surfaces glandular-pubescent >>>>>> abaxially, glandular adaxially.* *Racemes* 5-30 cm (10-80 cm in >>>>>> fruit); bracts unifoliate, ovate, 10-25 mm. *Pedicels* 20-45 mm, >>>>>> *glandular-pubescent*. *Flowers:* *sepals (reflexed after anthesis), >>>>>> *green, linear-lanceolate, 5-7 × 0.8-1.3 mm, *glabrous*; petals >>>>>> usually pink or purple, sometimes white (or fading to white by second >>>>>> day),* >>>>>> oblong to ovate, 20-30(-45) × 8-12 mm; stamens purple,* *30-50 mm;* >>>>>> anthers 9-10 mm; gynophore 45-80 mm in fruit; ovary 6-10 mm, glabrous; >>>>>> style 0.1 mm. *Capsules* (25-)40-80 × 2.5-4 mm, glabrous (in >>>>>> straight alignment with gynophore and pedicel). *Seeds* 10-20, >>>>>> 1.9-2.1 × 1.9-2.1 mm, tuberculate. >>>>>> FoNA illustration >>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=114119&flora_id=1> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have highlighted the difference between the two, which can be >>>>>> observed in bold. >>>>>> I shall be reviewing all our posts based on these differences. >>>>>> Hopefully we are able to sort our species. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> With regards, >>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>> >>>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>>>>> >>>>>> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>>>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in >>>>>> the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >>>>>> Efloraofindia >>>>>> website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a >>>>>> species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which >>>>>> more than 2,00,000 images are directly displayed on 30.8.19). >>>>>> >>>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>>>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >>>>>> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >>>>>> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds >>>>>> of India'. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> With regards, >>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>> >>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>>>> >>>>> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in >>>>> the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >>>>> Efloraofindia >>>>> website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a >>>>> species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which >>>>> more than 2,00,000 images are directly displayed on 30.8.19). >>>>> >>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >>>>> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants >>>>> etc. >>>>> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >>>>> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>>>> >>>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >>>>> India'. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> With regards, >>> J.M.Garg >>> >>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>> >>> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. >>> >>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the >>> world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >>> Efloraofindia >>> website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species >>> database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more than >>> 2,00,000 images are directly displayed on 30.8.19). >>> >>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >>> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. >>> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >>> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>> >>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >>> India'. >>> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepix+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/CA%2BiuSFA2%2Br3GV89JeOnNv5EJxHQGhSnxk6-TqQuitDGWci4sdQ%40mail.gmail.com.
