Garg ji I think we should treat G. lambertii page as normal page and not ? Regarding my upload there should be no doubt eFlora of China gives [Bhutan, N India, Kashmir, Nepal, Pakistan]. as Distribution Paper cited by me Wagh et al. 2015 cite distribution as India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim, Kashmir) Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet. Flora of Jammu & Kashmir published by BSI, 2002 cites specimen from Kashmir Baltal (same altitude as Apharwat) by Gammie Blatter, 1927, features this species in Beautiful Flowers of Kashmir page 66 Sharma & Jamwal List this species in Flora of Upper Lidder Valley, 1988.
On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 8:35:27 PM UTC+5:30, JM Garg wrote: > > Thanks, Chadwell ji > > On 22 Nov 2016 7:22 pm, "C CHADWELL" <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Dear Dr Singh >> >> Thanks for drawing my attention to this. However, in light of Geranium >> lambertii not being known from Kashmir by Stewart (or indeed >> NW of Kumaon at that time) and Nasir being sceptical about single >> collection reported in Swat (Pakistan) - he had not seen the specimen to >> comment further, *caution/uncertainty about provisional identifications >> of this species from a small number of photos only (not showing full >> characteristics) seems reasonable to me.* >> >> As for the paper 'An Assessment of Diversity Geranium.... in India with >> Special Emphasis on Indian Himalayan Region' (2015), the authors >> themselves, who with all due respect are not specialists in the genus and >> relied *solely* on what literature was available to them. They >> personally >> are unlikely to have much familiarity with the genus in the wild, many >> herbaria or cultivation. They did not consult Peter Yeo (thought as he >> passed away some years back that was not possible but it is highly unlikely >> that they would have done so, even if he had still been alive). It is fair >> to say that it has been to the disadvantage of Indian botany that contact >> and collaboration with Western botanists (or Japanese ones - who have done >> a lot of worthwhile joint projects in Nepal) and plant specialists has been >> discouraged at a senior level for decades, >> >> Returning to the authors of the 'Assessment', they correctly state in the >> 'Conclusions' that *there is much confusion in identification especially >> of perennial forms which are often considered difficult of discrimination.* >> They emphasise that* the genus needs a revisionary study to >> comprehensively explore the genus in India and to review existing >> collection of the herbaria in light of current taxonomic researches. The >> present study is a prelude for further investigation on Indian Geranium.* >> >> I note e.g. their first entry of Geranium clarkei named by Yeo (not known >> to Stewart or Nasir) yet they give no synoymns or indicate which species in >> Kashmir, G.clarkei was previously understood to be. >> >> Yes, they give in a rather odd sequence of distribution of this species: >> Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim then Kashmir (within Indian >> territory) for *Geranium lambertii yet on what basis, given it was not >> previously known in Kashmir or HP?* Where are the herbarium specimens >> which have been determined as this species? Surely, when it is claimed >> that a species has been found in a region it was not known from before, >> strong evidence is required to support the claim. >> >> Otherwise, how can such extensions to ranges be checked? *I have just >> posted a set of images of what I consider to be Geranium lambertii in >> cultivation on eFI. This allows others to inspect them (if they disagree, >> they can say why) and comment enabling a meaningful comparison with >> specimens from Kashmir, HP and Uttarakhand considered to be this species.* >> >> *Too often, identifications of Himalayan flora are based upon comparison >> between scrappy newly (i.e. in the past few decades) gathered pressed >> specimens (with few, if any field notes - at time no voucher specimens at >> all) with often scrappy, poorly pressed, badly preserved, 19th Century >> reference specimens or by 'matching' with brief guides such as 'Flowers of >> the Himalaya' (this is not a Flora and covers only a fraction of the total >> flora of the region) which has at best, single small images and summarised >> descriptions. Quickly 'matching' with such guides alone is not a reliable >> method of plant identification and whilst can result in reliable >> identifications for distinctive species but often misidentifications. I >> find that most Westerners visiting the Himalaya and Indian botanists use >> 'Flowers of the Himalaya' poorly. Few seem to have actually read the >> written descriptions nor checked altitudinal nor geographic distributions >> to see if their highly provisional identification tallies - if not, it >> should be checked further....... * >> >> *I hope, if an Indian botanist undertakes a revisionary study of Geranium >> they do not rely too heavily on just herbarium specimens (many of which >> were collected in the 19th century) in Indian herbaria. Extensive >> field-work needs to be undertaken and greater collaboration with foreign >> botanists, especially if specialists in the genera being studied exist and >> plant enthusiasts/horticulturalists and specialist gardeners along >> with specialist horticultural societies in the West. For genera which have >> ornamental merit there may well be expertise about them in cultivation in >> the West such was the case for Peter Yeo at Cambridge University. As far >> as I know he seldom (if ever) visited the Himalaya himself (though >> corresponded with others, like myself, who had) so his prime source of >> information were plants in cultivation (along with pressed specimens in UK >> and European herbaria he inspected). I know of expertise (and >> publications) on quite a number of genera well-represented in the Himalaya >> - though some of the experts have now passed away. I realise, as with >> professional botanists, not everyone is willing to help but for those who >> were, it is such a pity that their expertise was not put to good use by >> Indian botanists in the past.* >> >> *I remain doubtful that the geraniums named as G.lambertii from Kashmir >> are this species.* >> >> >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> >> Chris Chadwell >> >> >> 81 Parlaunt Road >> SLOUGH >> SL3 8BE >> UK >> >> www.shpa.org.uk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> >> *To:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> >> *Cc:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]>; efloraofindia < >> [email protected]> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 22 November 2016, 4:55 >> *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:257156] Re: Balsaminaceae, Geraniaceae and >> Oxalidaceae Week: Geraniaceae-Geranium lambertii from Kashmir-GS-20 >> >> Distribution: India (Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim, >> Kashmir) Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet. >> Pl see paper on diversity Geranium published in 2015 >> Wagh et al., J Biodivers Manage Forestry 2015, 4:2 >> http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2327-417.1000140 >> >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> Retired Associate Professor >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ >> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> >> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 5:13 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Thanks, Chadwell ji >> >> On 20 Nov 2016 1:22 am, "chrischadwell261@btinternet. com >> <[email protected]>" <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com >> <[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> I am uncertain what this is. It does not match well my understanding of >> what G.lambertii is plus there are no records of this species for Kashmir. >> Shall look into this further - there are several species of Geranium in >> Kashmir and bordering areas I am unfamiliar with. This specimen from >> Aphawat could be one of these. Plus there is the possibility of new >> species of this genus from this area - some new ones have been recognised >> in past decades. >> >> I consider it will be helpful for keen photographers, willing to make an >> additional effort, to know which parts of Geranium to photograph. Having >> images of such parts of each geranium will greatly aid identification and >> enhance our understanding of the genus in the Himalaya - and perhaps you >> can help with the locating and identification of a species new-to-science! >> >> >> PHOTOGRAPHING GERANIUMS: >> >> *IF only the first one or two flowers have come out don't bother to >> collect as the form of inflorescence will not be evident.* >> >> *The rootstock is important; get enough to show whether compact or >> creeping, or annual. You can photograph the base of the plant which should >> provide this information. Clearly, one requires permission from the >> authorities to uproot a plant. There is still a need and indeed role for >> the collection of pressed specimens for herbaria in India but that is >> primarily the domain of staff of botanic gardens/ institutions.* >> >> * In the early stages of flowering look out for the best-developed unripe >> fruits available.* >> >> * If fruit is ripe try to include both dehisced and undehisced states.* >> >> * If the fruits are falling with the seeds inside them, collect some >> (many geraniums disperse their seed explosively but some seed is often >> retained).* >> >> *Include some loose petals when pressing (detach if necessary). Expose >> stamens to show filament shape and hairs by taking 2 or 3 sepals off a >> flower from which petals have recently dropped.* >> >> *Smoothing out one or two leaves and flowers as you close the press may >> be helpful; a few separately pressed basal and lower/middle stem leaves are >> often useful.* >> >> *Wilted specimens can be very misleading.* >> >> *Notes should be taken as to flower posture, colour and patterning of >> petals, colour of stigmas, anthers and distal parts of filaments (not >> necessary if your photos show these).* >> >> *And don't forget to ensure the stipules are clearly shown - something >> that would have been obviously in pressed specimens, so not mentioned above >> by Yeo.* >> >> >> On Saturday, March 9, 2013 at 7:42:28 AM UTC, Gurcharan Singh wrote: >> >> *Geranium lambertii* Sweet, Geraniaceae. 4: t. 338. 1827. >> Syn: *Geranium **grevilleanum* Wall. >> >> Perennial herb with thick short vertical rootstock; branches trailing or >> ascending, up to 50 cm tall; Leaves opposite, stipules broadly lanceolate, >> free, 8-13 mm long, upper narrower; leaf blade 5-angled, 5-7-lobed to about >> middle, 6-8 cm broad, with rhomboid-cuneate lobes, appressed-hairy; flowers >> pale pink, rose-coloured or white,25-35 mm across,in 2-flowered cluster on >> up to 16 cm long peduncle covered with spreading hairs; pedicel up to 5 cm >> long; sepals elliptic-ovate, 8-14 mm long, mucro 1.5-2 mm long; petals >> 15-22 mm long, hairy at base, tip rounded or depressed; filaments >> lanceolate, hairy outside, anthers black; mericarps smooth, beak ap to 3 cm >> long. >> >> Photographed from Apharwat Kashmir. The leaves resemble G. wallichianum >> but stipules are much narrow and free and petals rose to white. >> >> -- >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> Retired Associate Professor >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com / <http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/> >> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg 45/ <http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "efloraofindia" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com >> <[email protected]>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix >> <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. 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