Forwarding for ID Distributed as Delphinium kamaonense ? <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/r/ranunculaceae/delphinium/delphinium-kamaonense> Group discussion at Kailash-Mansarovar Yatra::Delphinium Sp for ID NSJ-OCT 16/24 (google.com) <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/2O7F9cEOAcY>
On Friday, November 4, 2016 at 6:34:42 PM UTC+5:30 JM Garg wrote: > Thanks, Chadwell ji and Rawat ji > > On 4 Nov 2016 5:29 pm, "C CHADWELL" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear Dr Rawat >> >> Thanks for your comments and observations. It is such an asset to this >> group to have a keen and knowledgeable observer >> active in Uttarakhund - which I have only visited briefly, on one >> occasion and have few references about. Sorry, I am more familiar with >> Uttaranachal and Uttar Pradesh plus Kumaon (and Garwhal from the British >> days). There are many species found in Nepal also in this region indeed >> this is the NW limit of the distribution of more typically 'Eastern >> Himalayan' species and Dr Rawat has been able to located specimens >> not recorded from the region previously. The only way our knowledge of >> the region will increase is with observant, active field-botanists >> undertaking extensive surveys. You are setting an example for others to >> follow. >> >> I personally consider a vegetational division into 'Western' and >> 'Eastern' Himalaya as too simplistic (though there will never be perfect >> separations and always some overlap). But I feel plant >> distribution-wise, better to have 'Western' (more accurately North-Western >> Himalaya) covering 'Kashmir' sensu lato and Himchal Pradesh then 'Central >> Himalaya' covering Uttarakhund plus West & Central >> Nepal, then 'Eastern Himalaya' covering Eastern Nepal, Sikkim & Bhutan. >> I do not consider the mountains of SW China to form part >> of the Himalaya proper. Polunin & Stainton within 'Flowers of the >> Himalaya' considered that the Himalaya stretched from Nanga Parbat on the >> Indus eastwards to Namcha Barwa on the bend of the Tsangpo in S-E Tibet for >> 2250km. Whereas their book covered only the part of the >> range which lies within Nepal and the Indian Western Himalaya, a distance >> of 1450km. The Nepal-Sikkim border was chosen as the eastern boundary of >> their area with the India-Pakistan border as the western boundary. >> >> Do not know the flora of Arunachal sufficiently well to comment where >> this should be placed. >> >> I do not agree in the 'Sino-Japanese' Phytogeographic Region from Japan, >> Korea, south west China westward through what was upper Assam, Tiawan, >> Bhutan, west Nepa, Himachal Pradesh and Kashmir. The suggestion that there >> are many Sino-Japanese elements found in the 'Himalayan' zone within >> Pakistan e.g. is false.... >> >> Returning to the Delphinium photographed at Gunji. I do have some >> images (cannot locate them at present) taken in the Upper Kali >> Gandaki which from my memory looked similar to these. Will be >> interesting to compare them. >> >> I have a copy of 'Flora of Mustang, Nepal' Edited by Ohba, Ioakawa & >> Sharma (2008) - which I have found far from exhaustive which gives many >> specimens of *D.kamaonense* (plus a few of the similar *D.caeruleum*) >> from moist grassy slopes & shrubberies. *D.denudatum* is not recorded >> from this region. >> >> Strangely, *D.denudatum* is not included in 'Enumeration of the >> Flowering Plants of Nepal' yet its distribution in 'Flowers of the >> Himalaya' is given into Central Nepal (from 1500-2700m, so Gunji is beyond >> this altitude-wise) on grassy banks & margins of fields. Strange, as the >> Enumeration formed the main basis (along with the reference collections of >> pressed specimens in the herbarium of the Natural History Museum, London) >> of Polunin & Stainton's work. >> >> One can find images of *D.kamaonense* on the internet but these were >> taken in China by Professor Boufford (of Harvard) and his colleagues. >> Whilst one can have a high degree of confidence in the reliability of >> these, as accompanying herbarium specimens would have been taken >> and subsequently 'determined' by comparison with other reference pressed >> specimens (allowing examination close-up of floral and foliage parts which >> the two photos from Gunji do not), species which occur over a wide >> geographic range will inevitably vary (whether or not such variation is >> recognised at varietal or subspecies level or when a genus is revised >> sometimes as separate species) so must be examined with caution. >> >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> >> Chris Chadwell >> >> >> 81 Parlaunt Road >> SLOUGH >> SL3 8BE >> UK >> >> www.shpa.org.uk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* D.S Rawat <[email protected]> >> > *To:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]> >> *Cc:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]>; efloraofindia < >> [email protected]>; Saroj Kasaju <[email protected]>; >> Nidhan Singh <[email protected]> >> > >> *Sent:* Friday, 4 November 2016, 5:05 >> *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:254590] Kailash-Mansarovar >> Yatra::Delphinium Sp for ID NSJ-OCT 16/24 >> > Both these species *D. denudatum* and *D.kamaonense* have finely >> dissected leaves, though the images lack any leaves and stem part. >> The possibility suggested by Chadwell Ji may be more closer as the >> altitude of collection of this plant is mentioned around 3000m which is >> well within the altitudinal distribution of *D.kamaonense* (3000-4600m >> in Kumaon, Uttarakhand). Moreover, this species is reported from >> Pithoragarh District of Uttarakhand (Pangtey et al. 1988. Contribution to >> the flora of Pithoragarh district (Kumaun Himalaya) which is adjacent to >> Nepal. >> *D.denudatum* has an overlapping range of altitudinal distribution >> (1800-4000m in W.Himalaya) and known to occur in Pithoragarh district >> (Pangtey et al. 1988). >> I have seen only *D. denudatum* in nature and it often occur at around >> 1000-2200m throughout Uttarakhand. >> The Kailash-Mansarovar track follows the Kali river valley mainly and I >> have gone only up to Malipa (2300m); Gunji is far ahead of this place. >> >> DSRawat Pantnagar >> >> >> Dr D.S.Rawat >> Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & >> Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA >> *eflorapantnagar* <https://sites.google.com/site/eflorapantnagar/home> >> displaying wild flora of Pantnagar >> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:53 PM, C CHADWELL < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> No, I do not consider the images taken near Guni camp are of >> *D.denudatum*. >> >> We are at a considerable disadvantage not being able to properly see the >> stem or basal leaves >> and with Delphiniums having a side view of the flowers to show the spur >> better helps. >> >> *May I repeat a plea. Please take many more than 1-3 images of just the >> flowers and post more. Foliage (both* >> *upper & basal leaves, ideally showing lower surface as well), habit, >> **habitat >> are really important.* >> *Without such images one is left trying to work out the picture of a >> jigsaw with lots of missing pieces.* >> >> *It was the standard thing to just take one or two photos focussing on >> the flowers only in the past (which is what* >> *I did when using slides and the requirement of changing lenses and a >> tripod) but modestly-priced second-hand* >> *compact digital cameras are now readily available with wonderful lenses >> for good close-ups and once into a* >> *routine it does not take long to take the requisite images. Such a >> shame if missing images make it impossible for* >> *us to be sure which species a specimen belongs to or requires vastly >> more time and effort on our part. Never easy* >> *to return to the site especially when trekking high in the mountains.* >> >> Nevertheless, I currently think that the best bet would be *D.kamaonense* >> - recorded from Kumaon to Central Nepal >> @ 3000-4300m. 'Flowers of the Himalaya' say common on open slopes in >> Nepal, so quite possible from this location. >> >> Perhaps Dr Rawat has come across *D.kamaonense* in Uttarakhand? >> >> Any other suggestions? >> >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> >> Chris Chadwell >> >> >> 81 Parlaunt Road >> SLOUGH >> SL3 8BE >> UK >> >> www.shpa.org.uk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> >> *To:* D. S Rawat <[email protected]> >> *Cc:* chrischadwell261@btinternet. com; efloraofindia >> <indiantreepix@googlegroups. >> com>; Saroj Kasaju <[email protected]>; Nidhan Singh < >> [email protected]> >> *Sent:* Thursday, 3 November 2016, 13:32 >> *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:254590] Kailash-Mansarovar >> Yatra::Delphinium Sp for ID NSJ-OCT 16/24 >> >> Thanks, Rawat ji for your keen eye. >> >> On 3 Nov 2016 2:15 pm, "D.S Rawat" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Some leaves obscurely visible in background indicate possibility of >> D.denudatum. >> eFI page on D.denudatum >> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/r/ranunculaceae/delphinium/delphinium-denudatum> >> . >> >> DSRawat Pantnagar >> >> Dr D.S.Rawat >> Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & >> Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA >> *eflorapantnagar* <https://sites.google.com/site/eflorapantnagar/home> >> displaying wild flora of Pantnagar >> >> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:14 AM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Forwarding again for Id assistance please. >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: *Narendra Joshi* <[email protected]> >> Date: 23 October 2016 at 15:21 >> Subject: [efloraofindia:254590] Kailash-Mansarovar Yatra::Delphinium Sp >> for ID NSJ-OCT 16/24 >> To: indiantreepix <[email protected] m> >> >> >> Dear Members, >> >> Delphinium Sp for ID. Photo taken near Gunji camp (Uttarakhand) Aug 2016, >> Altitude 10500 feet. >> >> -- >> With Regards, >> Narendra Joshi >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "efloraofindia" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix >> <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> >> >> -- >> With regards, >> J.M.Garg >> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. >> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, >> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the >> world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia >> website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species >> database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). >> The whole world uses my Image Resource >> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. >> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >> India'. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/cc83ccde-c751-4ae6-aaf1-6cb327eb34ccn%40googlegroups.com.
