| Yes, that was exactly the reference I had in mind!
Thanks Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> I do remember that Gustav Roth discussed this in one of his works on Vinaya. I think he was arguing against Schlingloff on this point. Oskar von Hinüber has remarked on this by providing the bibliographical data: „Hervorgehoben zu werden
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>
I do
remember that Gustav Roth discussed this in one of his works on Vinaya. I
think he was arguing against Schlingloff on this point.
Oskar von Hinüber has remarked on this by providing the bibliographical data:
„Hervorgehoben zu werden verdient auch die Bemerkung zu dem
Längenmaß sugatavitasti § 186, Anm. 4, p. 202: gegen D. Schlingloff,
ZDMG 113, 1964, 544 hält G.
Roth daran fest, daß dies “the span between the extended thumb and the little
finger of the Sugata, i. e. of the Buddha” sei. Zur Orientierung von
Längenmaßen an bestimmten Körpermaßen bedeutender Persönlichkeiten vgl.
H.-J. v. Alberti, Maß und Gewicht, Berlin 1957, p. 94 mit Abb. 23, p. 95 zur
Festlegung des Yard, das sich am Abstand von der Nasenspitze zum Ende des
Daumens von Heinrich I. (1000-1035) orientiert.“
Oskar von Hinüber, Review of: Roth, Gustav [Hrsg.] : Bhikṣuṇī-Vinaya
including Bhikṣuṇī-Prakīrṇaka and a summary of the Bhikṣu-Prakīrṇaka of the Ārya-Mahāsāṃghika-Lokottaravādin.
Edited and annotated for the
first time with introduction and two indexes. Patna: K. P. Jayaswal Research
Institute 1970.
In: OLZ 72, 5 (1977), pp. 527–529 [= Kleine
Schriften II (2009), pp. 918–920].
Regards, WS
Am Fr., 3. Jan. 2025 um 23:46 Uhr schrieb Richard G. Salomon via INDOLOGY <[email protected]>:
Hi Patrick
My recollection is that There is an old controversy as to whether the sugata in sugata-vitasti means “conventional, current “ or “the Buddha’s”, in which case the term would be comparable to the king’s foot establishing the standard measure in Europe. I wrote something about this but I don’t remember where exactly. I am in Kolkata now but can check up my old files when I get back.
I do remember that Gustav Roth discussed this in one of his works on Vinaya. I think he was arguing against Schlingloff on this point.
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 3, 2025, at 11:30 PM, Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks, Madhav. This is very helpful. Yes, we have vitasti also in Kauṭilya — viewed as 12 aṅgulas, or about 24 cm (my own vitasti is only 21 cm, but I have a small hand!!). There would then be 4.5 vitastis in a hasta.
Thanks again.
Patrick
Patrick,
I found one likely explanation:
Source: Sutta:
The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary
Vidatthi, (f.) (cp. Vedic vitasti; see Geiger, P. Gr. 383) a span (of 12 aṅgulas or finger-breadths) Vin. III,
149 (dīghaso dvādasa vidatthiyo sugata-vidatthiyā); IV, 279; J. I, 337; III, 318; Miln. 85; Vism. 65,
124, 171, 175, 408; DhA. III, 172; IV, 220; VbhA. 343 (dvādas’ aṅgulāni vidatthi; dve vidatthiyo ratanaṃ, etc.). (Page 621)
Not connected to "hasta".
The word "vitasti" likely survives in Marathi as वीत vīt, a measure "from the tip of thumb to the tip of the small finger of a stretched hand". This is a common Marathi word.
Madhav
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 7:33 AM Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <[email protected]> wrote:
Friends:
Happy New Year. Someone from Thailand sent me this query, and I turn to you all for any possible answers:
The reference we found states: "...the
sugatavidatthi is really just the sugata hattha"
- The definition and relationship between sugata and hattha in your research
- The historical and textual basis for the 42.6cm measurement of a hattha
Additionally, if you are familiar with Buddhist texts, we would be very interested in understanding: 3. How this measurement might relate to the Buddha's span (sugatavidatthi) as mentioned in the Vinaya texts. However,
we completely understand if this falls outside your area of research.
This information is crucial for his research on Vinaya rules regarding robe dimensions (particularly the 6-hattha height limit for robes) and monastic dwelling specifications. Understanding these measurements has practical
implications for maintaining authenticity in modern Buddhist monastic practice.
With thanks and warm good wishes,
Patrick
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