G'day Peter and the Group
At 07:57 AM 17/10/03 +1000, Peter Elliott wrote:
Hi all, especially my brother, Andrew,
Have I missed something here? Has something happened to supercede the words
of Jesus and the gospels? What about: "You have heard that it was said,
'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your
enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of
your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good,
and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those
who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors
doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more
than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your
heavenly Father is perfect. (Mat 5:43-48)
And what about the actions of Jesus in allowing himself to be arrested and
crucified? Does all that mean nothing at all?
That's a good account of the case for Christian pacifism. If you've missed anything, it's that there are other ways of thinking too. I don't reject any of Jesus' teaching, but I think you have misunderstood it.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifism#Pacifism_and_Religion for a brief survey of how a few churches stand. The UCA isn't mentioned, perhaps you'd like to add the UCA view as you see it? That's how Wikis work. You can even do it anonymously if you wish.
If you do, try to adopt a Neutral Point Of View (NPOV). You can describe what the UCA or anyone else believes, that is information or knowledge. But promoting a particular view is not appropriate in an encyclopedia, and will probably be removed by someone else quite quickly. You should also try to be clear and accurate, of course. But perfection is certainly not required, someone will fix it up for you. There are about 1,000 of us actively writing Wikipedia right now, and another 14,000 not so actively.
Have a look at the UCA entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniting_Church_in_Australia too. I wrote quite a lot of it, but it now needs an update. I don't think we're the third largest denomination in Australia any more, for example. This is a 2000 figure, as the article says. I think we may be number five now.
I know the world (especially USA) is in favour of pre-emptive strikes, but
surely that is not the way of Jesus.
I don't like the doctrine either. I opposed its use in Iraq, and I still think it is a recipe for disaster.
But it's sometimes difficult to wait to be shot at before you shoot. The following conversation takes place in a classic Carl Barks comic as Flintheart Glomgold loads ten tons of TNT into a monstrous canon aimed at Scrooge McDuck's money:
Dewey duck: Uncle Scrooge, there must be a *law* against what he's doing!
Scrooge: *Loading* a canon? No! There's no law against that!
A defence force, OK, but only as large as is absolutely necessary and then
with its first priority being reconciliation rather than obliteration.
Hmmm. Agree.
Unfortunately these two goals (smallness and focus on reconciliation) are in some measure contradictory. A military objective can generally be destroyed by a far smaller force than is necessary to induce its surrender. That's one advantage of pre-emptive strikes.
Interesting that even Ghandi didn't abolish the military. With China and Pakistan as neighbours, it's probably no suprise. It always amuses me that people see the Indian nuclear bomb as anti-Pakistan, and sometimes even quote Kashmir as the source of the trouble. Of course China had the bomb before India did, and invaded Kashmir before Pakistan did. They are still there. But I diverge.
I'm a little surprised that your sort of pacifism doesn't involve abolishing the military completely. Many do call for this, and they seem to quote exactly the same arguments as you do above. Are you quite sure you want Australia to be armed at all?
Why?
Surely our neighbours are as important in the eyes of God as we imagine we
are. Because they are poorer perhaps more important.
Agree.
As for the UCA providing chaplains to the military - that's something that I
could never have done.
I suspected that, somehow. But why not?
I remember reading how both the Germans and the
English had chaplains during the second world war each seeking God's support
as they sought to blast their enemies into oblivion.
I don't think you understand the role of the UCA chaplains. Perhaps you should talk to one of them sometime.
If war worked how come
we are still at it after so many millenia?
Let's give love a chance, eh!
These are great slogans. I'm afraid I find slogans unhelpful in general. But if slogans are your thing, they're good ones.
I think "what would happen if they gave a war and nobody came?" is even better.
But I prefer other means of spreading the anti-war message. Have a look at
http://www.aftermath.ladybarn.co.uk/sassoon2.html
for one of my favourite poems. Or catch Benjamin Britten's awesome War Requiem next time someone plays it near you. I still remember how the last line was sung the first time I heard it live. "Now let us sleep". I will never be the same again.
Yours in Christ
andrew alder
email: andrewa @ alder . ws
http://www.zeta.org.au/~andrewa
Phone 9441 4476
Mobile 04 2525 4476
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