On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Warren Kumari <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Sep 11, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Instead of IP translator, I use the new term "IP payload copier". It > copies payload between different IP versions. > > Right… And who runs these? And who pays for them? And how many do you > need? And how do you scale them? And how does discovery work? And how are > they different to current NAT64 type things? > > W > > They are like other routing devices. ISPs pay. NAT64 works by translating the headers if I am not wrong (I just checked). IP payload copiers that I propose, copy payload from one version to another. We need 1 or 2 between this Internet and China's IPv6 Internet. Then another one, etc. As I see they are not different from backbone routers. The real question is not how it works, for the moment. The real question is: What do we want: 1. Worry about the whole core Internet, others' IP version choices? (a question that has no end no answer), or 2. Change the end nodes. Pars > > > > TCP does not work on this because it assumes same IP version for source > and destination. > > > > We probably need a new host identifier, and change TCP to use this > identifier but the IP version transition problem is solved forever. > Everybody use the IP version of their preference. This is the end-to-end > princple, we do not care about the core Internet, we change the end-hosts. > > > > See details in the paper: > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Pars Mutaf <[email protected]> > wrote: > > By "translation" I mean something completely new. It is written in the > paper: > > > > Splitting the path to two (or more) parts. One part is IPv4, the other > part is IPv6. > > > > Source IPv4 <-> Translator IPv4 > > Translator IPv6 <-> Destination IPv6 > > > > We take the data found in the IPv4 packet, we put it in an IPv6 packet > (and vice versa). > > > > By translation, I do not mean translating the information found the in > the headers. We only copy data. (from IPv4 packet to IPv6 packet and vice > versa). See the paper for illustration (Figure 2). > > > > How TCP works on this, I don't know yet. I don't have to know it right > now. What is important is "What we want". > > > > 1. Worry about the core network, i.e. others' IP version preferences > forever, or > > 2. Change the end-node TCP design, if necessary to solve this problem. > > > > Sending a packet from an IPv4 host to an IPv6 host, connected using such > a translator, is a routing problem. The problem is that TCP assumes same IP > version for source and destination. We need another type of identifier, > perhaps. Such proposals exist already. But again, what is important here is > not the solution. What is important is "What we want". It is one of the two > possibilities mentioned above. The second one, better respects the > end-to-end principle. > > > > Pars > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Arturo Servin <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > The big flaw of your idea is that you suppose that translation > magically works, which it is not true due to the complexity of some > protocols. That is why I am sceptical. > > > > You are very welcome to try your idea. Let me know how it goes. > > > > /as > > > > > > On 11 Sep 2012, at 11:21, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > >> Hi Arturo, > >> > >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Arturo Servin <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> On 11 Sep 2012, at 10:55, Pars Mutaf wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> "Do you have some running code?" > >>> > >>> These are all ideas and behavior that we adopted without questioning. > We use them in wrong situations generally. > >> > >> Which already exists in many forms of translation mechanisms that > we know are not the best way to solve the problem. There are plenty of > documents on the Internet that will tell you why. > >> > >> > >> I believe that people should be able to choose their own solutions. > Would you transition to IPv6 if Discrete IP worked for you? Some entities > may, others may not, others may do it when they have money, yet others may > invent and use IPv7. We cannot know. > >> > >> This means that China may use IPv6, Uruguay may not. We see what people > decide, we cannot force them. They use translators if they wish. I want to > develop and test a new IPvX in my university and be reachable to the world, > who can say no? > >> > >> Not knowing what is good for others, not knowing the future, helps > technology develop. It also reduces our suffering because we do not try to > know the unknowable. > >> > >> > >>> > >>> We first discuss the idea, then implement. > >>> > >>> The fact that there is running code doesn't mean that it is a good > idea. > >> > >> > >> But if it were, it would help to convince the sceptical like me. > >> > >> > >> I don't see why this would convince you. > >> > >> > >> Also, the fact that there is not running code could mean that the > idea is impractical and infeasible. > >> > >> > >> No you can implement anything. Even the worst idea. > >> > >> Pars > >> > >> > >> Cheers, > >> as > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Arturo Servin <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>> On 11 Sep 2012, at 08:20, Pars Mutaf wrote: > >>> > >>>> Discrete IP: > >>>> > >>>> 1. Can be a very good transition mechanism to worldwide IPv6 without > enforcement (meaning that we have no idea what is good for others) > >>> > >>> Do you have some running code? > >>> > >>>> 2. Can solve the IP transition problem forever. > >>> > >>> Forgive for being sceptical of those all magical technologies that > solve all the problems of the world. Of course, if you had running code > that would change my view. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> as > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Int-area mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > -- > After you'd known Christine for any length of time, you found yourself > fighting a desire to look into her ear to see if you could spot daylight > coming the other way. > > -- (Terry Pratchett, Maskerade) > > > > >
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