Joe,

> On Sep 28, 2019, at 8:05 AM, Joe Touch <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Hi, David,
> 
> Although I appreciate new interest in trying this experiment, that’s not what 
> I was asking.
> 
> My understanding of the logic is as follows:
>       - IPv4 in-header options aren’t supported
>       - so let’s make a version of IPv4 options inspired by IPv6 HBH options
> 
> That logic only works if IPv6 HBH options were a success. I’m asking for 
> anyone to point to a success case.
> 
> If there are no widely deployed IPv6 HBH options at this point (given they’ve 
> been available for two decades), this is not a useful approach to mimic in 
> IPv4.

To add, my preference would be see effort go into making a few IPv6 HBH options 
work on the Internet, vs. trying to update all IPv4 implementations to support 
a similar mechanism for IPv4.

Bob


> 
> Joe
> 
>> On Sep 27, 2019, at 7:11 AM, Black, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>> There may be a relatively contained early-adopter opportunity to try 
>> something in this area of IPv4 options – Deterministic Networking (DetNet – 
>> detnet WG) is using 6-tuple match (2 x IP address, L4 protocol [e.g., TCP, 
>> UDP], 2 x port, DSCP) to pick off traffic flows that go through the DetNet 
>> data plane in routers instead of the default data plane.  DetNet appears to 
>> nee IOAM in order to ensure that OAM traffic goes through the DetNet data 
>> plane – if the DetNet data plane is down, having an OAM  continuity check 
>> report that the default data plane is functional turns out to be worse than 
>> useless, as it has the potential to mislead the operator about where and 
>> what the problem is.
>> 
>> Thanks, --David
>> 
>> From: Int-area <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Joe Touch
>> Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 11:17 AM
>> To: Tom Herbert
>> Cc: int-area
>> Subject: Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for 
>> draft-herbert-ipv4-hbh-destopt-00.txt
>> 
>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
>> 
>> Hi, Tom,
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 7:54 AM, Tom Herbert <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>> Joe,
>> 
>> Your arguments seems to be more against use of Hop-by-Hop options in general.
>> 
>> My concern is that you are trying to copy what appears to be a failed 
>> approach. I have no position on whether it *should* fail, but more rather 
>> that it *has*.
>> 
>> I.e., I’m following your logic:
>>               - IPv4 options are not deployed and so are not useful
>> 
>> I agree completely. But isn’t the same true for IPv6 HBH?
>> 
>> If not, can you provide *an example of a widely deployed HBH option in 
>> current use*?
>> 
>> 
>> Last time I checked, Hop-by-Hop options have not been deprecated by IETF. 
>> Neither do I see why it's incumbent on us to show they're widely deployed as 
>> a prerequisite to developing them. Additionally, what is the evidence that 
>> they're not widely deployed-- for instance do we _know_ for a fact that 
>> they're not deployed in some large private network? (IOAM is targeted to 
>> closed networks). For that matter if we only are allowed to work with 
>> protocols that are widely deployed, then how could we ever work on new 
>> protocols? E.g. why should we develop new UDP options when they currently 
>> they have no deployment.
>> 
>> Agreed, but your logic leads to the conclusion that you should be using IPv4 
>> options (unless you show that space is a problem) first.
>> 
>> If that is a problem, then an IP protocol is sufficient, as it was for IPsec.
>> 
>> I see no need for an IPv4 framework to address a problem that doesn’t need 
>> that *framework*.
>> 
>> Joe
> 
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