> On Feb 6, 2015, at 12:42 PM, Stelian Mocanita <steli...@php.net> wrote: > > Sending people who want to have more structure in the language to Java > is downright bad, not to mention that it psounds completely dictatorial. I > would just put that in the next Zend newsletter to make it clear for your > customers that there is a saner option. >
Oh come on. I was kidding. I will remember for next time this list has no sense of humor. And just for the record this is not a zend thing. Four zenders voted based on their own beliefs - three votes were no and one was yes. So diversity here too plus a small minority of total voters who can't really move the needle much. Let's keep the conversation pragmatic. I will try and refrain from any humor. Andi > Stelian > >> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:57 AM, Andi Gutmans <a...@zend.com> wrote: >> The folks who really want all this great strict typing should head over to >> Oracle.com and download free open-source Java? I hear it's got a lot of >> strict typing features in it. Only downside is that it'll take them 10x >> longer to complete their projects. OK sorry. Had to say that :) I realize >> it's not the same... >> >> Andrea, while I don't agree with what you say I accept it. *But* exactly >> for the reasons you state (the big divide) we should also have a weak type >> hinting option to vote for in parallel. If you feel morally unable to do >> that then I can copy your work and just have another RFC running in >> parallel but I think that would do a disservice to the good work you've >> done. >> >> Andi >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:47 PM, Andrea Faulds <a...@ajf.me> wrote: >> >> > Hi Andi, >> > >> > > On 5 Feb 2015, at 23:22, Andi Gutmans <a...@zend.com> wrote: >> > > >> > > I have to say I’m pretty disappointed at the opening of the vote. >> > > We had a pretty good RFC (thank you) for weak type hinting which was >> > aligned with the spirit of PHP and everyone was able to rally around it. >> > >> > This is far from true. Some people on internals were happy, but only some, >> > and everywhere outside internals I looked, the reception was far more >> > negative. >> > >> > > This has now been morphed into something very hard to swallow and IMO >> > having such a declare(…) syntax will be ridiculed by the broader app dev >> > community until the end of time… >> > >> > Nobody mocks Perl or JS for use strict. >> > >> > > But even that syntax aside (it’s only syntax after all), I think we lost >> > the ability to reach consensus on something so important to everyone which >> > we haven’t been able to come to agreement on for over 10 years. Finally it >> > was there, in reach and you made a 180 degree turn. >> > >> > “Consensus” is exaggerated. There was no consensus and to claim there was >> > is to ignore the reality that the PHP community is divided over this issue. >> > I’d love to say that everyone loves weak type hints and if that version had >> > passed we’d all be dancing around happy holding hands, but the reception >> > was not uniformly positive, not even close, and that’s just on internals. >> > >> > > I think it’d be so much easier for us to implement weak type hinting. >> > Have everyone rally around it. Be happy and then learn and see whether an >> > additional mechanism is really necessary. >> > >> > Who’d be happy? I realise you and Zeev are big fans of weak types, as are >> > many others, but there are also a lot of PHP developers who vehemently >> > disagree with you. >> > >> > > We could even add an E_STRICT_TYPES error_reporting flag to help folks >> > “debug” their code if they so wish to see if there are any hotspots in >> > their code they may want to take a look at - again not necessarily an error >> > but maybe a debugging tool. >> > >> > Global error handlers affect all code the interpreter runs, which is why >> > we’ve looked down on them in recent times. >> > >> > > But net, net - why not just implement the thing everyone can agree on. >> > >> > Everyone doesn’t agree on it. >> > >> > If everyone did agree on it, v0.1 of the RFC would have been the one that >> > went to vote. >> > >> > > Have something really good in the spirit of the PHP Language for PHP 7 >> > and learn how people leverage that… The reality is that for the majority of >> > the Web community “1” coming in from HTTP should be accepted as a 1. >> > Period. >> > >> > It’s very well and good you claiming that the “majority” agree, but this >> > does not match my experiences. The PHP community is not a single, >> > homogenous entity. It is very difficult to judge. >> > >> > > I voted “no” but I will vote “yes” for the competing RFC which is 80% of >> > your RFC. Why are we not given that option?????? >> > >> > Because I cannot in good conscience push through something in the name of >> > “consensus” which does not even approach it. >> > >> > -- >> > Andrea Faulds >> > http://ajf.me/ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >
